A Facebook friend of mine recently posted the meme below. When you read it, you will immediately recognize that it is promoting a “pro-choice point of view and advocating for legalized abortion. When I saw it, I responded in order to deal with the topic based on a biblical worldview. One of this person’s friends took the opportunity to challenge me. What you will find as you read this discussion is a clear contrast between atheistic Naturalism and Christian Theism.
The truth is, whatever worldview dominates an individual’s (or a society’s) beliefs will be played out in life. In the case of abortion, we dramatically see how naturalistic views and theistic views are expressed based on the arguments that are made as people defend their positions. My purpose for posting this discussion is to highlight not only the debate, but also the policy expressions that emerge from these two points of view. It is important for Christians to not only to be able to discuss these issues from a biblical perspective, but to also recognize the pervasiveness of atheistic beliefs in modern society. It is my hope and prayer that reading this will help you become stronger in your biblical beliefs.
Notes:
- Asterisks (*) denote comments associated with the original string. All comments that do not have an asterisks are sub-conversations associated with the comment with the asterisks above it.
- Bad grammar and misspellings are not corrected.
- WPC = Women’s Pregnancy Centers (same thing as a CPC)
- CPC = Crisis Pregnancy Centers (same thing as a WPC)
- CMP = Center for Medical Progress – An anti-abortion organization that secretly recorded Planned Parenthood representatives sharing their willingness to sell aborted fetal tissue.
- There are places where we have tried to clarify things that may be unclear in the text. These clarifications are denoted by having been placed in parentheses ( ). Words in brackets [ ] are original parts of the conversation.
The Meme
You’re pro life until your wife is told by the doctor that her pregnancy is non viable, her baby has no kidneys or a brain, and will most likely die before birth. Under new law he cannot remove the fetus, even if it is stillborn, and your wife is forced to follow through with the delivery. You get to watch the fallout of her having to tell family, friends, co workers, over and over what is going to happen when they ask her when’s she’s due.
You’re pro life until the doctor tells you and your wife that she will most likely die if the pregnancy is brought to term, along with the baby. Your future, your soulmate, your everything will likely disappear in less than 1 short year and nobody can help you.
You’re pro life until your wife has a partial miscarriage, and doctors refuse to remove the rest of the fetus citing the new abortion laws. Your wife dies of septic. You get to arrange the funeral.
You’re pro life until your daughter is raped and your are forced to suffer through her pregnancy, only to have her die in a failed attempt to abort at home.
It’s not your body, not your choice! There are many different circumstances. It doesn’t always mean what you think it means. Not one bill tells a man what to do with his body. Not one bill makes a man step up and be a dad. This is not ok! I agree it’s not a form of birth control. But a woman should be able to decide on her own as it is her and her alone who has to deal with the decisions.
LITTLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT PEOPLE.
*Freddy Davis
You’re pro choice until you realize that the baby you are aborting is an actual innocent human being and that aborting it is the murder of an innocent who has no say in the matter, and no advocate for it’s life.
You’re pro choice until you realize that your baby was born alive after an attempted abortion and “pro choice” advocates want to kill it anyway.
The examples in the meme are mostly speculation and worded in a way that makes it seem like something it isn’t. In a perfect world, people actually value life.
*Freddy Davis
(Link to an article) My son, conceived in rape, is a reminder that love is stronger than hate – LIVEACTION.ORG
https://www.liveaction.org/news/son-conceived-rape-reminder-love/?fbclid=IwAR35wPhi12REJSrle8u7vHAPGoinwZVGqr-lO9ms3j8GModnZ-uMnBwDjUk
JC
Freddy Davis, that’s great she made that choice. But nobody should be forced to make that choice.
Freddy Davis
Nobody should be allowed the choice to murder innocent unborn babies.
*JC
You’re pro-life until the baby is born then you don’t want to fund foster care, mental health or physical health services, consistently vote for people who drop funding from TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) and all welfare benefits, you are pro gun and pro death penalty. Oh and your’re pro-life but not worried about the fetuses that get aborted during the Intro V (in vetro fertilization).
Freddy Davis
Those are some pretty big assumptions that you are making about my beliefs.
First of all, gun laws and the death penalty are red herring issues that have nothing to do with abortion.
Second, you have no idea about my views on funding foster care, mental health, or physical health services. Beyond that, there are numerous ways to deal with those kinds of issues [not all of which require government funding]. Interestingly, many of those non-government supported methodologies are adamantly opposed by most pro-abortionists.
And why do you think I have no concern about fetuses that get aborted during the Intro V process (in vetro fertilization)?
JC
Freddy Davis, first I never named you in that post. I never assumed anything about you. I was just naming the hypocrisy of (th)e pro life movement. I do however find it interesting that pro-life people are never willing to own they are not okay with murdering babies but unwilling to own that the death penalty’s is murder. Or how kids are dying because of inadequate gun control. Also always interesting how you want to cherry pick what the govt is involved in or not. And no there is not a enough private dollars to support the services I mentioned without govt support. And sadly The rural communities of this country would be mostly dramatically impacted by no govt funding because they often have the least private wealth.
Freddy Davis
Interesting claim that you “never assumed anything about me” but have made assumptions about an entire group of people that you lump me in with. That kind of generalization is simply false reasoning [in addition to your conclusion being not true].
Once again, your references to gun control and the death penalty are red herrings. You have created some kind of linkage in your personal philosophy, but they are actually not linked. That is a red herring argument. If you are really concerned about children being killed, how do you rationalize the murder of over 1000 babies per day in America by abortion? And you call me hypocritical?
Actually, you don’t know about the private dollars available to support the needs your speak of. Are you aware that there are laws that have been put into effect by pro abortion politicians that have completely shut down private organizations that were actually doing that work? Your assumptions are not supported by the facts.
JC
Freddy Davis, that’s because I don’t believe it’s murder. It can’t live outside a women womb.
JC
Freddy Davis, please back up that statement about .org (private organizations) being shut down with proof. And I have spent the last 15 years of my life in fundraising/ advocacy for mental health and foster care kids across this country, locally and nationally so actually, i know a shit ton about it. And yes both democratic and republican have been ruthless at supporting those programs.
Freddy Davis
Many people who are in accidents can’t live without a respirator until the body has time to heal, either. Does that mean they are not human and just arbitrarily pulling the plug is okay? The ability to live outside the womb is not the criteria for whether or not a person is a living human being. Are your as passionate against the laws that have recently been passed in some states that allow 3rd trimester abortions of babies that are viable outside the womb – or even infanticide for babies born after botched abortions? Those laws have been massively celebrated by the pro abortion crowd.
JC
Freddy Davis, Very rare. The most recent data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows that about 1.3 percent of abortions performed in the United States in 2015 occurred in or after the 21st week of pregnancy. Abortions after 24 weeks comprise less than one percent of all abortions. When they occur, it is usually because the fetus has been found to have a fatal condition that could not be detected earlier, such as a severe malformation of the brain, or because the mother’s life or health
JC
Freddy Davis, that’s just uneducated fear mongering.
JC
Freddy Davis, my pt (point) about people living on life support is we as a country make it legal to pull the plug on people who can’t live with out machines. That was my pt
Freddy Davis
Oh, so if murder is rare, it is okay? You seem to be missing the point. I only used that example because it corresponds to the point you were making. Perhaps you didn’t notice that I specifically made my example about someone who might recover. You are philosophically okay with killing innocent human beings if you can manage to dehumanize them. I refuse to do that.
*JC
Regardless, it’s the great thing about this country if you don’t believe in Abortion don’t have one but don’t put your beliefs on me. But more importantly nobody especially the govt has the right to regulate my body.
Freddy Davis
One person’s rights end where the other person’s nose begins. No one has the right to murder an innocent human being.
You seem to be greatly concerned about other people putting their beliefs on you, but no concern whatsoever about putting your beliefs on someone else in a way that actually kills them. You seem greatly concerned that no one “regulate your body,” but have no concern that you want people to have the right to regulate another person’s body in a way that actually kills them. You have an absolute right to choose what you believe and how you live your life. You don’t have an absolute right to terminate the life of another.
JC
Freddy Davis, that “other person” cant live outside a women’s body until it’s 22-23 weeks. I’m concerned with not having a women’s body controlled. That’s what’s this all about.
JC
Freddy Davis, When people are on life support or living on machines people seem to be unconcerned about killing them.
JC
Again so much hypocrisy in the pro life movement. It would be so great if they were worried about the innocence people sitting on death row.
Freddy Davis
Why do you think people who support life are not concerned about innocent people sitting on death row? That is senseless comment. You seem to think that anyone who doesn’t agree with you on abortion is not for fairness and justice. Your reasoning is simply false.
JC
Freddy Davis, because there area millions / billions of dollars and legislation being poured into controlling a women’s body but not in all those other areas. Did you know private conservative foundations spend the majority of there wealth supporting pro-life, Anti-gun control and other what I would consider anti- life agendas the more liberal foundations. The liberal foundations spend the majority of their money on programs and services that directly work to support the items I listed before. So I guess to me where a whole Movement focuses There time and resources makes me assume that is threes (sic) priority.
Freddy Davis
Your statement is simply false. I guess you are not aware of the millions/billions of dollars being poured into pro abortion causes and legislation by liberal foundations and other organizations. Somehow, you have made an assumption that support for good and justice can only be done by government programs. Your assumptions are simply false.
JC
Freddy Davis, I’m aware. Lol. Okay. Clearly I know nothing about my industry. But again these past two discussion you dont back up anything with data just your opinions.
Freddy Davis
If you are aware, then the point you made is completely misleading. If I responded in a way that did not correspond to your point, then your point is not clear. You seemed to be trying to assert that pro life people waste their money by trying to save innocent lives while pro abortion people are more compassionate with their donations. Maybe you meant something else?
I have no idea what your industry is, and I have actually backed up my points to about the same degree you have.
JC
Freddy Davis, you made some assumptions in your statement about compassion. My pt. Was you said I was making broad generalizations about the pro-life movements not being concerned with all those other issues. I was stating that based on where the conservative groups are focusing their time and resources heavily on the pro-life agenda that it makes hard to believe they are concerned about any of those other issues
JC
Freddy Davis, please back up that statement about .org being shut down with proof. And I have spent the last 15 years of my life in fundraising/ advocacy for mental health and foster care kids across this country, locally and nationally so actually, i know a shit ton about it. And yes both democratic and republican have been ruthless at supporting those programs.
Freddy Davis
California passed several laws (most overturned by the courts thank goodness) that would force Women’s Pregnancies Centers to operate in ways that went against their beliefs for the very purpose of shutting them down.
There have been several states that have passed various laws (mostly regarding gay adoption services) that would have forced these adoption services to operate contrary to their religious convictions. In some cases, these adoption agencies were also involved in foster care services and were the largest providers in the state. These organizations shuttered their doors rather than be forced to violate their consciences.
Planned Parenthood, the largest abortion provider in the US, was caught red handed providing parts from aborted fetuses to organ mills. To protect the abortion industry, the state of California has taken the reporters to court who exposed the crime in an attempt to shut down negative reporting of the abortion industry.
I would have thought that you would be quite familiar with these situations.
JC
Freddy Davis, I would have thought you were aware of the fact that planned parenthood was investigated and it was false. Officials in twelve states initiated investigations into claims made by the videos, but none found Planned Parenthood clinics to have sold tissue for profit as alleged by CMP and other anti-abortion groups. An investigation by the U.S. House of Representatives Oversight and Government Reform Committee found no evidence of
JC
Please post the laws you are talking? I’m assuming those are women centers run by pro- lifer who are operating misleading. I know all about those clinics. They put womens health at risk. Frankly, if an adoption agency refuses to adopt to gay couples then they aren’t serving the best interest of children and should be shut down. They are taking govt money and we are a country that doesn’t discriminate.
JC
I’m not sure what your pt is with these laws.
Freddy Davis
JC Seriously? They (Planned Parenthood) were caught on tape.
Freddy Davis
JC, And who is now trying to force their values on others?
Freddy Davis
Put women’s health at risk? Seriously? What world do you live in? The only way you can make that case is if you consider women not getting abortion to be putting women’s health at risk. You are really stretching now.
JC
Freddy Davis, seriously. Highly deceptive video and those guys have faved (sic) charges across the country. They don’t make profit off of it and only do it when women elect to have the tissue donated. Check you facts
https://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/?fbclid=IwAR2mRAjXru8tjXOjLrtGpS9reiS7VhVSqXs0KwoAQBj8jCUsGtHkFI8v9f4
JC
Freddy Davis, CPCs have also frequently been found to disseminate false medical information, usually about the supposed physical and mental health risks of abortion, but sometimes also about the effectiveness of condoms and the prevention of sexually transmitted infections.
JC
Freddy Davis, it’s not my values it’s our countries values we don’t discriminate regardless. And if you as an organization that receives massive amounts of govt funding you should be held accountable to our nations values. Period.
JC
Freddy Davis, you should read and watch more then Fox News
Freddy Davis
Right, and you should watch more than CNN. I guess that is where you get your information about WPC’s “false medical information.” It appears that any point of view that doesn’t fit within your paradigm is “false medical information”; information such as telling someone that life begins at conception. Everyone knows, right, that life doesn’t begin until viability outside the womb. [SMH]
Child murder and infanticide is not our country’s values (though there is a definite trend in that direction). But regardless, that set of values is immoral.
And where do you get that I receive massive amounts of government funding? I don’t get any government funding. What are you even talking about?
JC
Freddy Davis, I actually do research beyond CNN. Why do you think CA tried to ban those clinics because reports have show that they spread garbage – they won their case In the Supreme Court because of our first amendment rights. Not because they were spreading truths just their beliefs.
JC
I don’t know what you are talking about, I’ve never said anything about you receiving money from the govt
Freddy Davis
Your assertion about the “garbage” is only considered “garbage” by you because you disagree with it, not because it is actually garbage. Besides, the law CA passed, and that was overturned, was because they were trying to force WPCs to refer women for abortions when they were against it. Are you against people have freedom of conscience?
Quote from above: “And if you as an organization that receives massive amounts of govt funding you should be held accountable to our nations values.” How can you not know what I am talking about when you just wrote it?
JC
Freddy Davis, I was referring to “you” as said organization not you. Anyways not you particularly.
JC
And in reference to CPC: The FACT Act requires unlicensed crisis pregnancy centers to post a sign or otherwise disclose to their clients in writing that the center is not a licensed medical facility and has no licensed medical provider who supervises the provision of services. The disclosure requirement extends to advertising, which anti-abortion pregnancy centers objected to as an attempt to “drown out” their message.
The second provision of the law, dealing with licensed centers, requires clinics that do not provide a full range of reproductive care, including services covered by Medicaid, to post a sign that says the state provides free or low-cost access to prenatal care, birth control and other reproductive care, including abortions.
JC
In a 5-4 ruling, the court said the centers are likely to succeed in their claim that the law violates the First Amendment.
JC
That’s fact.
Freddy Davis
Exactly. I don’t dispute what you said. What I dispute is your claim that they put out false information. Your characterization of the work of WPCs is a reflection of your personal biases, not the work they do. Killing babies is not reproductive “care.” Euphemisms like that are attempts at deception to cover up the truth about the real nature of abortions.
JC
Freddy Davis, just because you refuse to read and believe what I post about those CPC doesn’t make the lies and misleading information the put any less garbage. I’m all for adoption counseling and helping women who want to keep a baby. But they have been found to be misleading, and spreading misleading and harmful information.
Freddy Davis
So what information do you think they are sharing that is misleading? You keep making that accusation but have not been willing so far to say what you are actually talking about. I think you are simply calling anything you disagree with misleading.
*JC
And that fetus can’t live without my body until it’s 22-23 weeks old.
*Freddy Davis
Viability outside of the mother’s body is not the determining factor as to whether or not a baby is a living human being.
*JC
Well that is your belief. Again, don’t have abortion if that it your belief. But since it’s in my body it has to use to survive I get the choice to allow it be there.
*Freddy Davis
Are you saying you are a science denier? And are you saying that you believe that you should have the right to decide who lives and dies? Wow!
*JC
I’m not science denier, and no I don’t get to make that decision. Nor do you. It’s a women’s body and again it’s can’t live with(out) her body. So basically it’s a parasite until 22-23 weeks. It’s her right to make the decision about her body. Nobody else.
*Freddy Davis
If that is what you believe, you definitely are a science denier. At the time of conception, a fetus is a living human being (it is not some other animal) with it’s own unique DNA (different from both the mother and the father). It is not a parasite. Definitely very sad that you have such a low view of innocent human life.
JC
(link to an article called: Life Begins at Conception That’s Not the Point)
Freddy Davis, https://rewire.news/article/2012/11/04/life-begins-at-conception-thats-not-point-0/?fbclid=IwAR1YstLqn_IJ3HFwujGUk_x4rXd1aOyJmWLfZc2MRzc9TTVHrOW7vA3QRD8
JC
Freddy Davis The question is not when life begins. That just obfuscates the real issues.
The fundamental issues are:
When does pregnancy begin?
Does personhood begin at conception?
Is a fertilized egg, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus a person with rights that trump those of the woman upon whose body it depends?
Do women need “evidence” that if they are pregnant, odds are they are going to have a baby?
Do women have the moral agency and fundamental rights to decide whether or not to commit themselves not only to the development of a life within their own bodies, but to a lifelong tie to another human being once a child is born?
JC
These are from that article (see link above) but are spot on
JC
Freddy Davis, recourse to safe abortion care, an unintended pregnancy is a forced pregnancy and a forced birth, and amounts to reproductive slavery.
Freddy Davis
They are not spot on. They represent a philosophy of the glorification of death – other people’s death, that is. It is the assertion of a “right of convenience” vs. the “right to life.” It is based upon an atheistic foundation that recognizes human beings as nothing more than one animal creature among many – with the human animal having no more value than any other. There is no science to back up that belief, it is simply a philosophical point of view that naturalistic philosophy asserts. So:
Yes, personhood begins as conception.
Yes, a fertilized egg is a person.
The fact that the fetus is dependent upon its mother in the womb has no bearing on the personhood of the baby.
Yes, women do have the moral agency and fundamental rights to decide whether or not to commit themselves to a lifelong tie to another human being once a child is born – but they do not have the right to kill the baby. There are other alternatives. Our son is adopted.
No, women do not have the moral agency and fundamental rights to decide whether or not to commit themselves to the development of a life within their own bodies. No one has the right to kill innocent human being.
The idea of “forced pregnancy” is weird. And the idea of forced birth being reproductive slavery is sick.
JC
Freddy Davis, but that’s what it is when you are outlawing abortion it’s a forced pregnancy and does amount to slavery.
It’s not a glorification of death. It’s about rights of the women.
But Your male so your rights will never be taken over by another “person”.
Freddy Davis
So what about the rights of the child? Oh right, that is nothing but a parasitic piece of tissue. It’s okay to kill it without it having an advocate.
But I get it. You have made it clear that you operate off of a naturalistic philosophy of life that does not value life as much as it values personal convenience. Based on that foundation, I wouldn’t expect any other argument from you. No need to resort to insults and gender identity politics.
JC
Freddy Davis, it is gender politics you are trying to control and force women into pregnancy something that doesn’t effect or impact you at all. What about the value of the women’s life that you are forcing this pregnancy on? You don’t seem to care at all about her rights.
JC
Freddy Davis why should women be forced to have a child so others can. That’s isn’t her job.
Freddy Davis
So who is forcing a woman to become pregnant? Outside of rape, which is pretty rare percentage wise (I assume it is okay to use that (argument) as you did it yourself when you wanted to make a point that you thought favored you), women make the choice themselves to engage in activity that causes pregnancy. Your argument on that point is senseless. You are really arguing to use abortion as a means of birth control. If that really is your philosophy, then why don’t you just own it and say that your personal convenience is more important than the life of an innocent baby, instead of keeping on trying to make these convoluted arguments where you accuse me of causing the pregnancy of people I don’t even know? Your argument is the logical conclusion of a naturalistic worldview, and it is what you have been arguing for.
JC
Freddy Davis, first, men are just as responsible for pregnancy and don’t bear the weight of Responsibility. Well if women and men had access to comprehensive and free birth control and really sex education we would continue to see huge drops in unintended pregnancies. I’m saying a women shouldn’t have to be forced into a decision that was an accident. A decision that will completely alter her life. Franky if your so worried about abortions how about we advocate for for male birth control or all men should just get a vasectomy?
Lol. What are you talking about? I’m not accusing you of causing any thing. It’s funny you had this same argument in our last discussion I was accusing you and trying to get you. Nonsense.
Freddy Davis
I don’t disagree that men are just as responsible for a pregnancy. You are the one who wants to shed any responsibility for the “accident.” But that still doesn’t justify killing the baby. Why should I advocate for male birth control? You seem to think, for whatever reason, that I am responsible for solving the problems other people make. How about a little personal responsibility? Be responsible with birth control, and if you make a baby, take responsibility for the life you have created.
If you don’t want me to think you are accusing me of stuff, then write in a way that does not put responsibility on me for other people’s actions.
JC
Freddy Davis, I think I said we advocate, as in the broader “we”.
JC
Freddy Davis, men cause 100% pregnancy’s. They are the ones who ejaculate and make the pregnancy happen. Men should take personal responsibility for their decision and use birth control or not orgasm.
Freddy Davis
So, women don’t have any say in the matter? How about people, both men and women, take a little personal responsibility and not engage in behavior that causes pregnancies in the first place (by whatever method they choose)? Your blame game is a rather meaningless exercise and is nothing more than a diversion from dealing with the real issue, which is that once a pregnancy occurs, you are dealing with the life of an actual human being and both the man and the woman are responsible for taking care of it.
JC
Freddy Davis, it’s not a blame game. If we want to stop abortion then we [I mean we as as a nation] need to start out responsibility on men equally. Not just controlling women’s body.
Having an abortion is a women taking personal responsibility for the women and mans choice. Just because you don’t personally agree with that doesn’t, negate that the decision is a painful, and emotional choice. None of the decision around unintended pregnancy are easy for a woman. But what she choices based on what is right for her body and life is none of your business.
If you don’t believe in abortion don’t have one. Oh yeah, your male you can’t. So you will never understand what it’s like to have to make any of those decisions.
Freddy Davis
Why do you continue to ignore the life you are killing? You act as if the woman is the only one that exists as it relates to an abortion decision. It is not! Every abortion requires the death of a baby. It seems that you have objectified unborn children to the point that you don’t even recognize them as human. The premise of your argument is simply not true.
Further, you have expressed your opinion as a moral decision by calling the ability to decide whether to abort or not abort something that is “right” for a woman’s body. But what are you basing your morality upon? You are claiming the “right” to murder an innocent. What kind of moral foundation allows for that?
Using your logic, what right does society have for saying theft or battery, or even murder are wrong if the person doing it finds it “right” for them? In that case, what business is it of yours? NO! The entire premise of your belief is not only wrong, but immoral.
Conclusion
At this point JC quit the discussion.
The takeaway from this dialog is that we see a clear representation of how a biblical worldview and a naturalistic worldview are expressed in real life regarding the topic of abortion. Our worldview beliefs are not mere isolated notions that are limited to our intellect. The destructive implications of Naturalism play out in every part of life, and we see them expressed in societal attitudes toward other things like homelessness, illegal immigration, substance abuse, and many others. As Christians, it is critical for us to be aware of these beliefs. It is by this knowledge that we come to understand how to express the truth of our Christian faith in the public square, as we partner with God to hold back the forces of evil that are so prominent in modern society.
© 2019 Freddy Davis