Recently, as happens somewhat often, an Atheist contacted me out of the blue in order to attack the Christian faith, and my advocacy for it. This person went by the name Alfred Neuman (He never revealed his real name to me. Alfred Neuman was a character in Mad Magazine). This attack, however, was a bit different than the usual interaction. It seems Alfred actually knew me and my family in the past. This was many years ago, and even though he said we have met I was not able to discern who he is. I mention this because this issue comes up in the dialog.
Usually when Atheists attack, they do so based on their belief that science supports their position and “religion” is an unsupported superstition. Alfred didn’t do that. It seems that he had a terrible experience with some Christians in the past and he was offended to the point that he dismissed the entire faith because of it. In other words, his aversion to the Christian faith was not based on an intellectual belief in Atheism, but on an emotional aversion to Christianity because of the bad behavior of Christians.
In truth, Alfred is not alone. There are a huge number of people who have the same complaint – people who grew up in a Christian environment but got turned off for one reason or another. There are two reasons I think reading this conversation is important.
One is to remind us of the importance of being true to our faith. This does not apply only to our understanding of correct doctrine, but also to the way we live it out in daily life. The way we live and interact with other people is a witness – either a good one or bad one.
The other reason it is important is to get some idea about how we should engage these kinds of people. As you will see, Alfred did attempt to give some intellectual justification for his position so I had to engage him a little on that level. But the biggest issue here was to try and help him recognize that his aversion to Christianity was not based on a true understanding of God, but of a perversion of the Christian lifestyle by selected people (which I also hate). It is my hope and prayer that reading this conversation will influence you to evaluate your own life regarding how you live out your faith in front of others, as well as cause you to be more determined to learn the kinds of things you need to know to witness to those in this situation.
March 18, 2014
How can you say jesus christ and christian are compassionate people. When christians hate people of different religions, different sexual preferences, different opinion, and different political beliefs from your own. I use to be a christian, but have been an Atheist for 8 years now, some I should have done years ago. The reason I left, because of the double standards that christians live by.
March 18, 2014
First of all, you seem not to have made a distinction between hating people and disagreeing on matters of morality. Since you disagree with me, does that mean you hate me (even though we have never met)? In fact, based on my Christian faith, I love you and don’t want to see your life destroyed – which is what will ultimately happen if you remain in your state of separation from God. Is it hate to warn you of that? Or is it love and concern?
Beyond that, Atheism has no objective, transcendent means for determining moral right and wrong. So, on what basis are you upset? How can you make a judgment that my beliefs are bad? What do you base your judgment on – just your own opinion?
Actually, it seems to me that if anyone has a double standard it is you – expecting that I live by biblical morality yet you get to condemn me based on my morality and don’t even believe in it. Where does that come from? And why do you care enough about this to attack me – someone you don’t even know?
When you say you used to be a Christian, what do you mean? Simply that you were raised in a Christian church? That you were baptized? None of that makes a person a Christian. Have you ever known a personal relationship with Jesus Christ – I mean truly engaged that personal relationship with the objectively real person that is God?
I truly hope you will reconsider some of the misconceptions you have attacked me with. God does love you, holding to biblical morality is not hate, and I pray for you that you will come to know the God who is there.
March 20, 2014
Freddy, I hate people who go around judging and condemning people if their religious belief is not christian. Or their sexual belief is different.
From my own experience, I grew up in a christian family. I was taught not to judge people or gossip about people, force christianity and their opinions down peoples throats, among other things. They also taught to love people, and to have compassion for other people. Then turn around and judge and harass people if they were not christian, or they had other sexual preferences. Then people going through a rough time look down on them.
But it is okay to judge people, control people find fault with people gossip about people all in the name of jesus christ.
When christians talk about separation of church and state. They mean that they do not want government to interfere with church business. But it is okay for the church to interfere with government business.
From what I have learned while going to a christian church, is that it is okay if christians live by a double set of standard.
I can why people are leaving the christian church. Most that do become Atheist like myself, or they go to non christian religions.
If you want people to become christians and stay christians, christians and their leaders have to show compassion toward others instead.
I knew you father and he kept me a christian for years. For the simple reason, he never said anything hateful to anyone or about anyone. Even if they were not christian. He always had a kind word for everyone. He never judged anyone, he never said anything negative toward anyone.
By the way we have met. And this is the reason for me writing to you. You are a very likeable guy. I believe that you are doing more harm that good, when you judge and condemn people openly. all that is doing is turning people away from your god. Let your god do the judging and condemning. If your god is really a god of love and compassion, then show it.
What turned me was when I had some legal problems, at least 95% of my christian dumped me and refused to have anything more to do with me. The other 5% started telling lies about me.
and that finished me off. That was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. And that is what did it for me being a christian.
My own father quit going to church because of all the christians that lived by a double set of standards. To add insult to it. The preacher at his church refused to have anything to do with the funeral, because my father did not attend church while this person was preacher there. When this person became preacher of his church, dad was too sick to go, even if he wanted to. He was confined to bed the last years of his life.
So I hope this helps you to understand.
March 20, 2014
Thank you for the kind words about my Dad. We all miss him.
I truly believe that you are sincere in your letter and am particularly disappointed that you and your dad were treated badly by people who called themselves Christians. That said, you seem to have certain beliefs and ideas which do not fall together well. Please receive my evaluation with the spirit I mean it as I have yours. Perhaps if you recognize where I am coming from you will have a different understanding about what I do. I am going to try to take these, as much as possible, in the order you brought them up in your note.
When you say you were taught not to judge people, does that include the beliefs I express or does that just go one way? It seems that there is somewhat of a judgmental tone to what you wrote. Are you saying it is okay for people to believe that homosexual relationships are moral and normal, but it is not okay to say that they are not? Are you saying it is okay for those who believe homosexual sex is okay to judge, harass and put down the beliefs of those who believe normal marriage is right, but is not okay for it to go the other way?
Next, I am not completely sure what you mean when you use the word “judge.” As you have suggested, I, nor any other Christian, have the ability to judge the eternal salvation of any person, regardless of their sin of choice. That said, I do believe it is proper to speak the truth about topics which cause people to be separated from God. There really is a distinction between judging and expressing truth. It seems that you have not made that distinction and are accusing me of judging someone when I am not. You have to know my internal motivations to make that kind of judgment.
Beyond that, I constantly have Atheists blasting me with insults, profanity and counter arguments – well beyond anything I would ever do when expressing my faith. Why does that not turn you away from Atheism? Why does it not bother you that people on your side act that way, yet you get totally turned off when a Christian expresses a moral stance? I don’t understand the double standard there.
As a Atheist, you begin with the assumption that there is no supernatural reality – thus no God. The fact that you have that belief, however, does not make it true. God does exist – and has truly revealed himself and his ways to mankind. It is his pronouncements about morality which reflect actual reality, not your opinion. So if God really does exist and sin truly does separate people from him eternally, what kind of slimeball would I be if I did not share that knowledge with people who don’t know him and warn them of the consequences?
I appreciate that you are concerned that people are leaving the Christian church to the point that you would give me instructions about how to stop that from happening. But if Christians give up their Christian beliefs in order to comply with your wishes, there is no longer a Christian church. I am well aware that there are Christians and churches which do not live up to the standard God gave to us. I have also been on the receiving side of some dreadful hatred from people who call themselves Christians. But you must know that it is not those bad “Christians” who get to set the standard. Why have you allowed bad Christian’s teaching and the demonstration of non-Christian beliefs and behavior to influence you like that? God has set the standard and it never changes no matter how badly certain people act. What you have done is get mad at Christians and blamed God for something that even he condemns. Where is the fairness and rightness in that? What seems to have happened is that instead of learning true Christianity yourself, you got your influence from false Christians and you believed them. There is something wrong with that picture.
I thought it was interesting that you said my dad kept you a Christian for years. I am happy that you had that good experience with him. But in truth he had nothing to do with keeping you Christian. That is a choice that individuals must make for themselves. Instead of rejecting the teaching he gave you when a different person treated you wrong, why didn’t you honor his influence and reject the bad people by staying faithful? That just seems kind of twisted to me. If you thought that much of him, it seems that you would have sought to follow his example rather than run in the opposite direction. I agree with you that there are bad Christians. But there are a lot of good Christians and good churches out there, too. You just didn’t make the effort to find those places.
I disagree that I am judging and condemning people. What I am doing is speaking the truth and calling people to turn their lives over to God – which provides the most peace, joy and meaning in life that is possible for people to have.
Here’s what I hope you understand from this: People doing bad things – even bad things to you – is not the criteria for truth and reality. It is horrible when that happens and I have experienced it myself. I know what it is like. But I am not willing to allow their problems to be my problem. I look to God for the truth and follow that. And if you want to know the truth, that is what you will have to do, as well. God really does exist as a person that you can know in an objectively real personal relationship. In fact, he created you for that very purpose. But you get to choose whether or not you will enter it. If you do, you will know the peace, joy and purpose I was talking about earlier, plus eternal life in the presence of the God who loves you more than you love yourself. If you choose to continue allowing the bad actions of others to push you in another direction, you simply don’t get that.
My sincere prayer is for you to know the best this life has to offer for you – which is life in relationship with God.
March 21, 2014
I believe that the reason that Atheist give you and other christian leaders a rough time, is the reason I mention before. It is the double standards that christians live by.
I am not judging, but letting you know the damage that christians are doing by judging. By judging I would be just like a christian.
christians preach, love thy neighbor as they love themselves, then turn around and harass people who are different.
For example, a friend that I grew up with married a guy who had a brother who was gay. My friend her family treated the guy the way, I believe that christians should treat people. I got to know her brother-in-law. He was a nice guy, who told me that his in-law was the only christians outside of his family who were nice to him.
His family was also christian. But he told me that he would get phone calls all the time, and letters mailed and on his front door. Demanding that he repent and change his evil way. Did it change him? I doubt it. As it turns out, the guy hung himself. His mother finds his lifeless body. She not only quits going to church, she also start drinking. The last thing I heard about his mother, she had been put in a mental hospital because of it.
What did the christians have to say about his death? The christians who I knew that was harassing him. Went around saying “He could not live with the guilt.” When in fact I believe that he was harassed to death by christians.
When christians find out that I became an Atheist, Their response is “I hope you burn in hell!” Remarks like that keep me an Atheist.
Since christians are taught to live like jesus did, with compassion. I take it that jesus did not have any compassion, only hate.
It appears to be all one sided.
The reason I am telling you all of this, is to show you and your followers the damage that is being done.
March 21, 2014
Let me say again, I completely agree with you that treating other people badly is not a good thing. The reason I can make that evaluation is that the Christian ideal is to treat people right. This does not mean we have to accept the sinful behavior of people and keep quiet about the truth concerning the wages of sin. But I agree with you completely that there is a good way and a bad way to do it. The fact that you know some people who did it badly still has NOTHING to do with whether the message of the gospel is truth or not. Did you know that there are, literally, evil doctors practicing medicine out there? There really are. So, because that is true, do you refuse to see the doctor when you have a need? I would venture to say that has nothing to do with your choice in that situation. My guess is that you would refuse to see a doctor you considered bad and would change and go to one who was good. In the same way, it is simply wrong for you to steriotype all Christians and the Christian faith based on the bad behavior of some people you know.
As far as this gay person and his mother, what a horrible tragedy! That said, you are reading into their situation and assigning causation beyond what is even possible for you to know. In spite of the fact that some people may have been ugly to him, you have no idea what was really at the root of his demise. Blaming Christians and Christianity is a horrible copout.
People make choices in life and they live by their choices. The guy and his mom did not have to accept the ridicule of the gay bashers and did not have to choose a path of self destruction. By the same token, you choosing to be an Atheist and blaming it on the bad choices of people who claim to be Christians is craziness. Why would you let people have that kind of influence/control over you? Why can’t you make your own decision based on your actual search for truth?
Seriously, I don’t mean this in any bad way. In fact, I hope you will take it as a challenge to start becoming your own person. While there are people who claim to be Christians who act badly, they are doing so based on beliefs and behavior which do not correspond with the actual teachings of the faith. On the other hand, there are many faithful believers who are actively serving God and doing the right thing who are helping many people. Why don’t you find the true believers instead of continuing to use the unfaithful ones as an excuse to turn your back on God?
One more thing. Interestingly, you have not made a single argument in favor of your supposed belief in Atheism. Every single complaint you have made relates to people who claim to be Christians but don’t act like it. Based on that, I am not sure you really are an Atheist. You don’t seem to have any reasons for positively believing there is no supernatural reality. All you seem to have is an aversion to certain people who claim to be Christians. Maybe you have some things you need to sort out in your own mind.
I really hope and pray for you that you will find a way to move beyond the chains that have
you locked in darkness.
March 21, 2014
All I wanted to do was to get the message out why people like myself went from being a christian to becoming an Atheist.
It does not surprise me of your answers, as every christian believe that they have all of the correct answers, and everybody else is wrong, about everything. As always christians turn everything around so that they come out looking like a martyr.
I know I have made the correct decision by becoming an Atheist. All that means is I do not and will not believe that jesus christ or anyone else is a god.
So far, no christian has proved to me that jesus christ or anyone else was a real god, and a god of love and compassion. It can not be proven.
At least I will put no one down for what they believe are or what they are.
I can understand why christian leaders do not want their followers to check out other religions. As the leaders do not want the followers to know the truth.
I will always be an Atheist, and turn back to the evil ways of christianly. My only mistake is not becoming an Atheist years sooner.
Freddy, I do not hate you as a person. It is what you believe that I do not like.
March 21, 2014
I suppose your assertions that you have the right answers is different than me saying I do. I really don’t see where I turned anything around. I simply stated the obvious. You are certainly free to make your own choice about what faith you will follow and I, nor anyone else, can do anything about it.
And that is what makes much of what you said so curious. Even in your latest post you are accusing bad Christians of making you become an Atheist. All I am saying is if you are going to take that position, own it yourself. Believe it because of the evidence, not because someone made you mad.
But if you are going to do that, then support it with evidence (though if that is your plan you better really start hunting because there is none). You say that no one has proven that Jesus Christ is God, but you are wrong. He proved it himself. He lived a perfect life and rose from death after having been crucified. I am pretty sure no one but God could have done that.
On the other hand, what proof do you have that there is no such thing as a supernatural reality. There certainly is no science to back up that position. So that leaves you having to believe it by blind faith.
I don’t know why you think Christians are afraid to check out other religions. I do it all the time. In fact, I probably know more about your religious faith of Atheism than you do. You obviously went to my website because that is where you sent the first communication. If you looked around it at all, you had to have seen information about scores of different religions.
Honestly, I don’t know what you expected to gain from this exchange. Did you contact me to try and convince me that my Christian faith is not true? Did you contact me just to vent? Did you contact me because you wanted to convert me to Atheism? I’m sorry, but Atheism is simply not true. And it bankrupts the souls of those who go that route. You might want to reread what you have written me and see the evidence of that in your own writing.
God does exist as a person who loves you and wants to give you a life full of joy, peace and meaning. From what you have written, you could use a little of that. I honestly pray that one day you will recognize what you are turning your back on and grasp the actual truth about the Christian faith rather than the wrong assumptions that you have been working off of.
March 22, 2014
I went to your web site because I did not know your email address. A family member has you on their facebook. So I was able to see some of your statements.
The churches I have been to the leaders tell their followers not to check out other religions in any way.
My contacting you was not to say I am right and you’re wrong. Out of respect for your father, I only wanted to let you know why I left the christian religion. I know of several people who have left the christian religion. Some became Atheist and others went to other religions.
In no way am I trying to convert people away from the christian religion. Nor am I putting the christian religion down.
I also have found that the teachings from the Dalai Lama has done me more good, than the teachings from jesus. As well as the teachings of his religion. If I get back into religion, I will go to the religion of the Dalai Lama.
March 22, 2014
As I said before, you are certainly free to do what you want. However, you are still playing the game of shirking personal responsibility for what you do.
First of all, you are not honoring my dad by becoming an Atheist or letting me know your excuse. He was a committed Christian and would be terribly disappointed at your decision.
Secondly (and I don’t know why I need to keep repeating this), leaving the Christian faith because of the unChristian actions of some people who call themselves Christians is a copout. You are putting the blame for your decision on the backs of people who did not make your decision. If you believe that there is no such thing as a supernatural reality and it is truly an ideological decision, then you must own it and must be able to defend why it is the truth.
As it is, you have done neither. You have simply made an excuse as to why you don’t want to be accountable to God.
As for the Dalai Lama, you are free to gain your inspiration anywhere you want. However, while his Buddhism is atheistic in the sense that it does not acknowledge a personal God, it is a very different kind of Atheism than what you have already suggested. It does believe in a transcendent reality which traditional Atheism rejects. If you are saying you accept both, you are living with an internal contradiction which is impossible to reconcile. Also, the teachings of the Dalai Lama are truly shallow. But whatever floats your boat.
Finally, I have no idea concerning your experience at churches whose leaders suggested you not learn about other religions. Now, if their admonitions are to not actually try out other religious beliefs, I completely concur. If you mean, however, not to learn about them, then I would say your personal experience is extremely limited. It is certainly not good technique to make such a broad generalization based on your limited experience.
Alfred, as I said above, you have to make your own choice about what you will do with God. You have the choice to reject him. But you must also be willing to live with the consequences. The truth is, the experience you have described to me certainly may reflect your experience with certain churches and Christians. It does not, however, reflect a true understanding of the Christian faith. I personally think that it is pretty poor of you to make such a monumental decision based on things which simply don’t reflect actual reality. I truly pray that you will put aside your wrong beliefs about the Christian faith and your emotional aversion to your wrong beliefs long enough to actually learn the truth.
March 22, 2014
I believe that the christian religion is the wrong religion. I know I have made the correct decision. I have not and will not regret the decision.
March 22, 2014
I think you have made that plain. I don’t know, though, what you mean by wrong. It does represent what is real. God actually does exist and your refusal to acknowledge that affects your life. The “correct decision,” then, doesn’t mean true, so it must mean that running away from God is the most convenient way for you to continue to blame other people for your rejection of him. You may not regret your decision right now, but there will be a day when you realize that God does exist and that you have made the wrong decision. I hope and pray that that day occurs before it is too late for your eternity. Praying for you.
March 23, 2014
I am not running away from your god. We both know you god has been dead for around 2 thousand years. He was a con-artist of his day, along with his 12 friends. They took ideas from different religions of the day and turned it into a religion that would worship. christianity is just another name for a dictatorship.
jesus and his 12 friends were not only con-artist of the day, but were thieves, liars, murderers and rapist of small children. The christian religion was invented for the purpose to control people, judge people, find fault with people, get people in trouble with the law of the land, gossip about people, among other things, all in the name of a god.
jesus’s mother the virgin mary was a religious prostitute. joseph was her pimp. It is a belief that the virgin mary had given birth to many children. It is also a belief that Zebedee was a client of mary, and the real father of jesus.
It is well known that jesus and mary magdalene were lovers, and lived together. It is well known that jesus fathered at least 2 children. A boy named james and a girl named sarah.
The crusades was a christian sanctioned military campaign, called by the pope as a way to force to get the population to become christian or die.
The very first pope was jesus it self. The first bishops were the 12 friends of jesus.
There are also contradictions in the bible. adam and eve was the first.
All religious leaders are and were on a huge ego trip. Your father-in-law was one. Why did you think the church you grew up in failed. When your father-in-law got the big head, the church started to lose members. And don juan finished the church off. don juan even got his parent to move to another church.
And you expect people to believe in your version of the bible and god.
I along with other people are not stupid to enough to believe all of that christian garage. Like people use to be.
I could go on as I have a lot more information, but will not.
March 23, 2014
This is not a serious e-mail right? I mean, while it is full of assertions about who Jesus was, historical events, the identity of various people and the like, there is virtually nothing you have said that is true. I don’t know where you got it all, but there is not one piece of actual evidence you have cited to back it up (and honestly, that you will be able to cite). If you are going to make assertions like that, I am going to have to insist that you back it up. Until you do, nothing you have written has any meaning at all. It is like you have made up the fairy tale you have accused me of believing.
So, all religious leaders are and were on an ego trip, huh? That kind of generalization about a group of people, any group, is just plain silly. (And who is this Don Juan you have referred to? Is it a real person?) It is truly sad to me that you have allowed other people to gain control of you in such a way that has allowed anger, hatred and bitterness take over your life. That is certainly a miserable way to live. And ALL of it is built on a lie that you have incorporated into your life. The truth is, God is a good and loving person – so much so that in spite of your hatred and rebellion, he still loves you and still holds out the offer of peace, joy and meaning for your life.
It is my prayer and hope that at the very least you do a little bit of honest and objective research and re-evaluate your position based on factual information rather than the falsities you have put forth. I am praying for you.
March 27, 2014
This is serious. I believe it, since one of your fellow baptist preachers said that. So it must be true. As all christians insist they have all of the correct answers.
Don Juan is a real person, I just used a different last name since you know him. As he grew up in the church you great up my.
It is you that has the anger and hate, as does all christian.
I do not have to prove to you anything. I just wanted to let you know why I left the christian church. So that maybe you could see why people are leaving the christian church.
I should have known you do not care why people have left the christian church. You just want them back.
With all these emails I no longer have any respect for christians living or dead.
I know of a lot of people who have left the christian church. Some have just quit going. Others have gone to other non-christian churches. Then there are people like me who have quit believing in god altogether.
No man or woman can convince me to come back to that christian god. I will tell them where they can put their god, and it will not nice. As I am tired of trying to be nice to christians. And all I get is a slap in the face. So please forget that I even sent you any emails.
March 27, 2014
I understand that you are angry, but I am not the one who has put it in you or put you on the road you are on. I have no animosity toward you at all. The fact that I am challenging your reasoning is not an act of anger or hatred. In fact, it is my greatest desire that my challenges would lead you to reconsider your irrational responses. You are still, to this very post, refusing to take responsibility for your own anger. You blame me for your arguments being irrational. You blame other people for you running away from God. It is all completely irrational. It is like you refusing to go to the gym because some fat people show up there.
Again, I have on several occasions said that no one can make you believe in God. If you are going to do it, you have to do it on your own. The same, though, applies to your rejection of him and your anger toward other people. No one is responsible for that but you. You choose how you will deal with it. Up until now, you have reacted purely out of emotion. You have not given a single rational explanation for your rejection of God.
I continue to lift you up to the Lord and pray that you will at some point open your life up to him. He exists whether you receive him or not. He loves you whether you love him or not. And you will live somewhere eternally whether you believe it or not. I truly hope you will begin to consider rationally the implications of what you have been saying. Please feel free to interact with me anytime.
April 5, 2014
I see you are still judging and controlling people. Since I am a better person, I forgive you of your evil ways.
April 5, 2014
You really don’t seem to understand the implications of what you are saying. Do you not realize that your accusation about me judging and controlling is based on a judgment and desire to control me? You have no way of knowing the motivation of my heart, yet you have assumed it is malicious. I assure you, it is not. In fact, my purpose in sharing the things I have with you is to help you see that the assertions you have been making about Atheism are simply not true. They do not line up with the way reality is actually structured. Truth and reality are found in Jesus Christ, and him alone. Recognizing that he is a real person and entering into a personal relationship with him is the only way you are ever going to get beyond the anger and bitterness that you have been expressing. I am continuing to pray for you that you will enter into the truth and know the peace and meaning in life that Christ died to give to you.
April 5, 2014
I know the truth, as I was brought up in the christian religion. I left the religion because it taught people to judge, control, lie, and gossip.
I am not judging you or trying to control you because that would be christian. And calling me a christian is worse that calling a black person a nigger.
Nor do I want to be like your religious leaders. Karl Marx, Joseph Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
Plus anyone who worships a con-artist who has been dead for almost 2000 years, can’t be playing with a full deck.
It is also a known fact that christians will do anything to turn the table and try to make it appear that they are the victim.
Mr. Davis no matter how hard you try. You and your friends will not convert me back to christianity. As I know the truth about christianity. And your email keep confirming to me that I know the truth.
I just feel sorry for your people. Living a lie all your life.
April 5, 2014
It is so sad to see you keep on repeating the same untruths. You say you were brought up in the Christian religion, but you have said nothing about the faith itself. ALL of your complaints have been about people who, obviously, were not living up to the tenets of the faith. In addition to that, your characterization of the faith is simply in error. It does not teach people to judge, control, lie and gossip. If you believe that is what the Bible teaches, you obviously have never read the Bible. It actually teaches the exact opposite. Continuing to repeat untruths will never make it the truth.
You also keep saying you are not judging or trying to control me. But by saying the mean spirited and hateful things you have said about me and my faith, that is exactly what you are doing. If you don’t see that, you are more blind that you realize.
Karl Marx, Joseph Stalin, and Adolf Hitler Christian leaders? Do you not realize that they were Atheists, not Christians? In fact, the official religion of Marx was Atheism. I think you need to study your history a little. They are closer to your religious leaders than mine.
You call Christ a con-artist. Okay, prove it! Prove he was not God who incarnated as a man and was resurrected from the dead after his crucifixion. Just because you don’t like Christianity does not mean what you are saying is true. In previous posts you made a number of false assertions about the historicity of Christ and the early church and I challenged you on them. You never demonstrated the truth of anything you posted. I’m sorry, but unless and until you can back up what you are saying, it can only be taken as the angry venting of a person who is running from God.
I think I have made it very clear in previous posts that I recognize there is nothing I can do to make you become a Christian. That is a decision every individual must make for themselves. If you are determined to remain separated from God, that is your choice. But you must also realize that the consequences of your decision are also on you. As much as I would love for you to enter into the peace, joy and purpose of life in Christ, I can’t do it for you – and wouldn’t presume to. So, continuing to try to put that on me and other Christians is a cop-out. You need to just own it.
Please don’t feel sorry for me. I am a believer in Christ because I have chosen to know him and the peace, joy and purpose he gives to my life. You are the one who continues to spout out hatred and anger. I truly hope that one day you can move beyond it. Please let me know anytime you would like to know more about how you can know Christ.
April 6, 2014
I have read the bible, and it does teach people to judge, control, lie, gossip, and all in the name of jesus christ.
It is the christian that say mean spirited and hateful things.
I do feel sorry for people that believe that christian garbage.
Like I said before, I thought you might be interested in knowing why people are leaving the christian religion.
But I should have known that you would try to convert me back.
I live a far better life now that I am no longer a christian.
April 6, 2014
I’m sorry, Alfred, but continuing to repeat untruths does not make them true. If you have read the Bible and found it to teach people to judge, control, lie and gossip, then you simply do not understand what you have read. If you think you can demonstrate your words to be true, then I would be interested in you showing exactly where you find that kind of teaching. But the fact is, it is not there. You are simply in error.
And Alfred, I suppose you have never met any non-Christians who have said mean spirited and hateful things? I come across them all the time. Why do you not hate every other religious belief (including Atheism) because of the hateful things people with those beliefs say? In fact, many of the things you, yourself, have said fall into that category. Personally I don’t like being called mean and hateful, but you do that in virtually every post. Why is it okay for you to be that way but criticize others? I have already acknowledged that there are Christians who are that way, but your generalization that every Christian falls into that category is simply false.
Frankly, I don’t know why you continue writing back and repeating the same complaints and falsehoods. You seem to have made your decision that you are rejecting God and are willing to live (even eternally) with the consequences of your decision. I hate that, but the only person who can do anything about it is you.
You know, as I think about all of the posts you have written, I am not really sure you are an Atheist. You have not given even one bit of evidential justification for why the supernatural does not exist. Every complaint you have made has to do with someone in the past having hurt your feelings. And because of your hurt feelings you have blamed God (who didn’t even have anything to do with it). Your logic is skewed and your reasoning is illogical.
You say you live a life far better now that you are no longer a Christian. Based on what you have expressed, I really don’t believe you were ever a Christian in the first place. Going to church and calling yourself a Christian doesn’t make you one. The only thing that makes a person a Christian is to enter into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you had ever entered that relationship, you would have experienced God’s love and would not have left him over the offense of some mere mortal. All you seem to have left is a church.
If your life is better now than it used to be, I am happy for you. But if it is better now, it must have really been bad before because the bitterness and anger you express in every post can never lead to the kind of joy in life that is possible for people to know. As I said before, I am continuing to pray for you. In fact, every time you respond it gives me more to pray for you about. I hope that one day you can move beyond the angry feelings you have toward other people and come to the realization as to how you totally misunderstood the dynamics you were dealing with. In spite of anything any human being ever said or did to you, God loves you and wants you to come to him. I pray that you will one day come to understand.
April 6, 2014
I have met many people that are non christians that have not only been friendly and nice. They have a lot more compassion that christians do.
The biggest problem I have with christians is that they all judge and condemn everyone they do not like.
It is the christian that will not accept the truth.
That is why I am not surprised that when I first told you why I left the christian church, you just had to start judging me. Then whine that you thought I was judging you.
All you have done is to give me one more reason not to accept the christian religion.
I also know that you are not going to give up emailing me until I convert. Which will be never.
You may fool a lot of people into believing what you want them to believe.
The way I see it, all christian leader are like James Warren Jones, David Koresh, Miles Manson, Theodore Cowell, and Warren Rush.
There is nothing you can do to change my mind, ever. You god is not able to change my mind either.
Instead of getting mad at me, and judge me. Be sure to take a good look in a mirror.
It is also my believe now that ALL christians are worse than Adolph Hitler. As well as make him look like a saint.
So why don’t you stop preaching, and put your christian voodoo curse on people you don’t like.
April 6, 2014
You continue to totally discredit everything you say by making such broad generalizations. I also know many non-Christians who are friendly and nice. So, what is your point? There are friendly and nice people among every population. Your generalization simply is not true and doesn’t relate to the point you are trying to make. Continuing to repeat the same falsehood will never make it true.
Did you, by any chance, reread your post before you sent it? You accuse me of judging you and turn right around and not only judge me, but every Christian who ever existed. Then you characterize all Christians based on a list of people who are either not even Christians or simply do not fit the category you have asserted. And in doing it, you expressed yourself in one of the most hateful diatribes you could possibly have done. And you get on to me for simply expressing my prayer for you? I really don’t get your hatred and venom toward me. I have never done anything to you.
I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself. I do not and cannot judge your position before God. In fact, I don’t even have to. You have overtly stated your own position. I have also continually said that your decision is your decision. I have expressed that my desire is for you to come to know Christ, but also that I am in no position to convert you. Again, your decision is your decision. Now, with all of that, how is that judging you?
Alfred, I understand that you quit church because someone offended you. But I really don’t get why you are keeping up your diatribe. Just because that was your experience does not mean you know why everyone who has quit church did it. There are all kinds of reasons why some people do. On the other hand, there are millions of people who have lived outside of a relationship with God who have come to know him. Your point simply is not something that can be generalized in the way you are doing it.
Again, I am praying for you. I hope one day you can find true peace.
April 7, 2014
My point to my original email was to let you know why I left the christian church. And that there are other people who left for the same reasons.
Some of these people became Atheist like myself. Other people joined other non christian religions.
I was not out to point out anything else.
I thought you would of like to know why people are leaving the church.
I was not trying to prove one religion is better than another.
Or to prove anything at all. Just to be informative.
Since you were a friend, I hoped you would take the information for which it was attended. For your information only. Nothing else.
I think it will be in your favor to do more listening and less preaching.
April 7, 2014
I think I have replied on several occasions that I understand what you are saying. My purpose in responding to you was to share that the reason you gave may be a legitimate reason for leaving a particular church, but is an illogical reason for dismissing the Christian faith. The truth of the Christian faith has nothing to do with the actions of ANY particular individuals.
Consider this analogy. Imagine that as a child, your next door neighbor, who was a doctor, yelled at you and hurt your feelings. Then when you became an adult you refused to go to a doctor for a heart problem because of how that one doctor treated you when you were a child. It simply wouldn’t make sense. The childhood incident literally has nothing to do with whether or not going to the heart doctor as an adult was the right thing to do.
So, once again, your choice is your choice. No one can make you become a Christian. But you are making your choice based on your own hurt feelings rather than on the truth about God – who has done nothing to you but show his love.
I appreciate that you have been a little less hostile in this post. I certainly never desired that our interaction be contentious. But our eternity is quite a serious matter. Once we enter it there is no turning back. What we do in this life regarding our relationship with God sets our course for eternity. I would certainly be no friend if I did not try to help you see how you could be on the road to knowing God as opposed to allowing you to slip into eternity separated from him. Remember, anytime you would like to reconsider your choice based on the truth, it would be my pleasure to point you in the right direction.
April 8, 2014
It is my belief that I am going in the correct direction. It is a decision I have made, and mind alone.
On a positive note. We both have a mutual friend. He is on facebook. When you are on facebook, look up _____________________. And click on the photos. He will be easy to spot, as he has a beard and wears glasses, as well as weighs in just under 300 pounds. In one of the bands he has been in for 39 years. But he is in both of the bands.
April 8, 2014
Very cool about the bands.
I understand your decision. Someday down the road if you would like to revisit it, I would be happy to be your go-to guy.
April 8, 2014
Sure Freddy, if I decide to change my mind, you will be the first to know. Of course I may have some questions.
April 8, 2014
Anytime, Alfred. My pleasure.