Most Christians don’t interact a lot with people who are Atheists, at least not in a social setting. This is not unusual because, for the most part, people interact with others who share common interests. Those who hold radically different beliefs at a worldview level are, generally, not the most comfortable people to socialize with. That does not mean, though, that we are not around them with opportunities to interact. It is just that with such a large divide between atheistic and Christian beliefs, the most comfortable thing is to not interact.
Another reason it is often uncomfortable for Christians to interact with Atheists is because most Christians don’t have the knowledge needed to counter the challenges to their Christian faith that will inevitably be thrown out. Who wants to face people who are going to challenge one’s most deeply held assumptions when the skills to do it are not present? As Christians, though, we need to interact with non-believers. These are the people who don’t know Christ and who need our witness.
The Atheist Attack
Below is a conversation that I had with Jay. Jay is a hard-core Atheist. By his own testimony, he grew up in a Christian environment and later fell away from the faith. Since becoming an Atheist, he has made it his business to go around challenging Christians in a rather obnoxious way. It seems that he read one of my articles and decided to confront me about my “ignorant belief in myths.” So, he wrote and we began a dialogue. As you read this, you will notice a couple of things.
First, you will observe his vitriol. Jay was not very nice in the process of the dialogue. He had no hesitation about confronting me using both profanity and personal attacks. His abuse got even stronger when he was challenged and not able to deal with my retorts. In a case like this, it is very difficult to maintain a Christian demeanor. At the same time, it is so important to remember that these kinds of interactions are fantastic opportunities for witness. You will notice that I did not back down from his taunts, but I never got personal with him and always tried to put in some kind of witness. When you deal with people who have so much internal anger, it is very unlikely that an exchange such as this will win them over. But we never know how God might use this in the future to reach into their lives.
Another thing you will notice is Jay’s poor language skills. In spite of this, it is important to recognize that he is not an ignoramus. He, obviously, never did fully comprehend many of the issues I challenged him with, but he has, seemingly, done a lot of reading over the years. It is just that most of his reading is of writers who are Christ-haters. These kinds of Atheist apologists operate off of a non-Christian worldview platform. As such, they make assumptions about reality which bring them to conclusions about Christianity which are simply not true. You will find that virtually all of his argumentation comes from this perspective. On top of that, when I challenged him on his worldview assumptions, he had no way to respond. This is not surprising because he is so locked into the naturalistic worldview that he couldn’t grasp Christian worldview concepts (which is one reason why it is so important for Christians to master worldview understanding).
For the most part, Atheists don’t know how to evaluate Christian ideas based on worldview presuppositions other than their own. You will notice that, in this conversation, I tried many times to point this out to Jay. He had two kinds of responses to my efforts. The first was to simply ignore it. Then, when I kept forcing the issue, he threw out insults and asserted that it had nothing to do with the discussion we were having. As you will see, he never did come to understand.
Background of Specific Attacks
Before actually getting into the dialogue, let me take a moment to point out the kinds of attacks Jay made. Hopefully, this will become a resource for you as you interact with people who try to do the same thing to you.
1. Claim the Bible Is False
Understand this, there are probably hundreds of difficult Scripture passages which Naturalists will jump on in their effort to claim the Bible is false. These attacks fall into several categories:
∙ False because science proves them wrong.
∙ False because of contradictions.
∙ False because of immoral behavior by God.
∙ False because of wrong interpretation by Christians.
∙ False because of inaccurate transmission of the Scripture over time.
∙ False because of what is “not” contained in the biblical text.
There is one thing that you need to understand about this. The Bible is true and there is not a single taunt that cannot be effectively answered. At the same time, to get good at doing it will require effort your part. One of the more difficult parts of this process is not the actual defense of the faith itself, though effectiveness in this area is important. The more difficult element is to keep from falling into the trap of accepting the Atheist’s naturalistic worldview presuppositions in the course of making the arguments.
Realize this, though, you will not win too many points with Atheists by doing your argumentation by merely defending the Bible and the Christian faith. It may be necessary to deal a little bit in this arena in the course of a conversation in order to establish your own personal credibility. And, of course, having this kind of knowledge will also bolster your own confidence in the reliability of the Bible. But the real problem you will face is the clash of worldviews. Ultimately, your task will not be to defend the Bible, but to make the other person justify their worldview beliefs. You will notice that this is the approach that I have used in this conversation.
2. Bullying Tactics
Jay spent a lot of energy making very strong assertions to justify his points. He did this in several ways.
One tactic was to continually repeat his talking points and accuse me of not answering his questions. Even though I did answer them, he tended not to acknowledge my responses as legitimate.
Another tactic was to use profanity and insults. He also often wrote in ALL CAPS to verbally shout.
A third bullying tactic was to claim that he had been studying this for years and was, himself, an expert. I don’t doubt that he has, indeed, been at this for years. The length of time he has been reading and studying false information, though, does not make his case credible.
All of these are attempts at bullying and it is important not to let yourself get intimidated or caught up in this kind of shouting match. Always stay calm and focused on the discussion points. Emotional outbursts are not an argument.
3. Quoting of Outside Sources
Jay tried to use well known “authorities” to make the point that all of the really smart people in the world agree with him. These kinds of third party sources are only as good as the scholarship behind them. In some cases, he simply quoted famous people who had no credentials at all in the topic we were discussing. In other cases, he used sources which were clearly biased toward Naturalism without ever justifying his naturalistic beliefs (all of these kinds of arguments are based on naturalistic presuppositions, not on objective research). It is important to be able to make these distinctions in order to counter this class of argument.
4. Asserting That Science Disproves the Bible
The argument which tries to use science as a weapon is based purely on naturalistic worldview assumptions, not on actual experimental science. There is not any actual science that can be brought to bear to prove that God does not exist and that Christianity is not true. Some of the arguments Jay gives in this arena relate to archaeology and evolution. To deal with these issues, it is important to know the distinction between actual science and the naturalistic philosophy, which they claim to be science. It is also important to have some knowledge of what the various sciences are able to actually demonstrate as it relates to the arguments they bring up.
5. False claims
Sometimes Jay simply made claims which had no basis in reality. In this conversation he did it in several places. One claim related to the “non-existence of the town of Nazareth” in the first century. Another claim had to do with the authorship of the gospels. Other false claims involved such things as calling Jesus an expression of the pagan Sun God, asserting the gospels were not written until after the 2nd century, claiming that the gospel writings were really compilations made up of later writings, claiming that the history recorded in the Bible is false and that his secular interpretation is true, and several others. All of these kinds of arguments can be dealt with but, again, it is necessary for Christians to constantly be in a learning mode to accumulate this kind of knowledge.
Conversation with an Atheist
Becoming a true disciple of Christ involves more than simply being faithful in church attendance. It means continually learning the things necessary to live life faithfully for Christ. This certainly does involve faithfulness in our fellowship with other believers as we participate together in church. But it also involves continual learning in all of the areas which equip us to be faithful witnesses in the world.
Here, now, is the conversation with Jay. I am sorry that is it rather long, but it is my hope that it will become a useful tool in your personal discipleship experience.
November 16, 2012
I READ YOUR ARTICLE titled “Evidence That the Christian Faith Is the Truth about Reality” (http://www.marketfaith.org/evidence-that-the-christian-faith-is-the-truth-about-reality). Let’s look at some of the false claims in that article. In the first place god did not create man in his own image, man created god in his (mans) own image, that’s why the Bible god has arms, legs, head, heart like man has. Then you claim the Bible has literally hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, if you check the prophesies in the O.T. that Jesus supposedly fulfilled you will find they were never prophesies to begin with they are pulled out of context with surrounding verses and made to seem prophesies fulfilled. Two examples are Isa.7:14 and Micah 5:2 these were not Messiah prophecies. I’ll be happy to explain why they are not prophesies. The same is true about 300 or so other prophesies that most christians claim Jesus fulfilled.
You claim there is overwhelming archaeology evidence and that there has never been any archaeology discovery contradicting the Jesus tale. Do you not know they have now proved that the town of Nazareth did not exist in the first century? It is a town having it’s beginings in the second half of the second century and the third century. Without the town of Nazareth in the first century there could have been no Jesus of Nazareth in the first century.
The biblical claimed Exodus has been completely disproved. Manny, many other biblical claims have been dis-proved through archaeology. There are no biblical eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion or resurrection, the 4 gospel writers are anonymous writers, no one, ZERO knows who wrote the 4 gospels and whoever the writers were nowhere in them do they claim they themselves were eyewitnesses. They only claim they heard it from someone (un-named) who were eyewitnesses, in other words heresay. Yes there are claims of witnesses after the resurrection. But just claims. The claimed 500 have no personal names mentioned at all, and who sat around and counted that there were over 500? Then you claim a missing body really were you there? The easist way to dis-prove the resurrection is to prove if there ever was a historical Jesus, and not one contemporary historian or philosopher knows one thing about a miracle worker, crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus .. And plenty were living and writing during that period. You claim no one puts their life on line for a lie, don’t you remember the Jones biblical cult that took over 900 lives, r David Koresh in Waco, Tx. or the Heavens Gate people in recent years. You mention Communion and Babtism both of those ideas were done by the pagan sun god worshippers long before christianity. Also christianity did not grow very fast until Constantine made christianity a state religion about 325 A.D. So you need to get your facts straight and stop decieving millions of people.
Sincerely, In real truth,
email address: j@______.com If you have any refutes.
November 17, 2012
Wow, Jay, It is hard to know where to begin with your claims. I’m not sure there is much besides your name in the e-mail that is right. You have made a lot of claims, but there is really nothing in there that is backed up by anything except the opinion of yourself and others who take your approach. Your entire argument begins with the assumption that the naturalistic worldview represents reality (and I would love to see your evidence of that). If that is true, then you may have a case. However, if God actually does exist and he is the God of the Bible, then it is certainly not unreasonable to believe what I have written.
I am not going to take a lot of time to answer all of your accusations, but will just give brief comments.
1. What evidence do you have to back up your claim that man made up belief in God?
2. Your observations about prophecies is only valid if your hermeneutic is true. You have used an approach based on your naturalistic worldview beliefs. You have assumed that your approach is true, but have not demonstrated it to be so. Back it up.
3. I don’t know where you are getting your information about archeology, but it is purely bogus. 4. Your claim about no biblical eyewitnesses is bogus. How do you know?
5. Your claim about biblical authorship is bogus. How do you know?
6. Your claim about no missing body is bogus. You have no evidence to back up your claim.
7. You seem to have missed the point on those who put their lives on the line. In all the cases you mentioned, people actually believed it. They were not following what they believed to be a lie.
8. Your particular observation about communion and baptism do not relate to the argument at hand. You, again, seem to have missed the point.
9. Your observation about the growth of Christianity is simply not true. It was the growth of the faith that made Constantine consider making it legal in the first place.
Your entire set of arguments are truly old hat. It is the same set of arguments that have been around for centuries and have never been demonstrated to have any validity.
The truth is, Jesus Christ really was who he said he was and his death and resurrection from the dead has provided the possibility of a personal relationship with God. My suggestion is that you take the step to invite him into your life and begin a relationship with him.
November 17, 2012
So you begin by claiming there is not much in my email but my name that is correct. Do some un-biased research and you will find everything i said is the truth. You can not prove there is a god and i can not prove there is not a god, it’s hard to prove an invisible inaudible supposed god, there is nothing to base it on. So you are left with only faith in a 3000 year old book that no one knows who actually wrote one word in it. The definition of faith is: Faith is a belief despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The earth nor the universe support an intelligent design. If a god created the earth for man to inhabit it why did he leave it in such a mess of destructive things? We have volcano’s, hurricaine’s, tornado’s, earthquakes, diseases e.t.c. that destroy (kill) humanity that he supposedly created. The universe shows a big bang not an intellgent creator because you have space dust (caused from a big bang) it has Meteors, Comets, Asteroids that hit the earth from time to time in the past and will again in the future that destroys life on earth, no doubt the Dinosaurs were killed when an asteroid hit the earth because some have been found with un-eaten food still in their mouth showing instant death. So anyone should be able to figure out the earth was not created by any intelligent god.
You ask what evidence i have that man made up a belief in god, the evidence is all over, the Sumerians the earliest civilization leaving records left cunciform clay tablets that archaeologists have dug up by the thousands that have now been partly deciphered that have the same tales in them found in your O.T. and they were wrtiten about their sun gods, solar gods and vegetation gods. Those clay tablets have a similar god, a similar Adam and Eve, a similar garden of Eden, a similar snake or dragon, a similar Abraham of course they have different Sumerian names instead of Hebrew names as the O.T. has. And remember the biblical Abraham came from Ur a Sumerian city, so of course he carried out of the city of Sumer or Ur the Sumerian sun god claims. Your O.T. was copied from Sumerian beliefs to Hebrew (Israelites) beliefs of a one nation one god belief.
Don’t you find it quite odd that a god who supposedly created the first man and woman turned around and chose only one nation (the Israelites) to be the only one he supposedly helped. It’s a foolish tale made up by the Hebrew people claiming their god was better, stronger than all the other nations sun gods.
If the biblical god was not a man made god why would your bible claim in Numbers 31:17-18 for the Israelites to kill every male and female and even little babies, is that a just and honest god killing even little babies? No good god would ever do that. And remember he was telling the Israelites to break the 6th. commandment “thou shaly not kill” Not only that but he supposedly told the Israelite men to save the virgins for themselves, any idiot should know what this god was meaning by saying this. That alone should show the Bible god was made up by men. Plus the men took authority from women discriminating against them again showing evil men made up their god to suit themselves.
If you read the O.T. well you will see this supposed god broke all ten of the commandments himself or had the Israelites to break them throughout the O.T. And then you have Joshua 10:12-14 that claims the sun did stand still and cause a long day, this writer supposedly inspired by god thought the earth flat and that the sun rotated around the earth which caused daylight and darkness, of course now we know it is the earth that revolves and that the sun did not stand still. A perfect well known lie, And this and all the other i typed above christianity calls the infallible, inerrant inspired by god Bible. How foolish can christianity be?
Then we go to your #2. below, lets look at 2 examples that show supposed prophecies were taken out of context and made to seem prophesy fulfilled by the 4 gospel writers. Isa.7:14 was never, ever about a supposed virgin birth of Jesus some 700 years later. First the Hebrew word “Almah” translated virgin there is a mis-translation, Almah only means a young woman or maiden and does not convey a sexual virgin. Elsewhere in the book of Isaiah when this same writer meant a sexual virgin he used the Hebrew word “Bethulah” which does mean a sexual virgin, so whoever wrote the book of Isaiah knew the difference in those two words. Also if you read the whole chapter of ISA.7 and continue on through Isa.8:8,in Isa.8:3 you see the child concieved and in Isa.8:8 you see the child was named Immanuel all this happened during the time of Ahaz and was never a prophecy. The only way you can try and make it a prophecy is to pull the one verse (Isa.7:14) out of context with all surrounding verses. If you read Isa.7:14 straight from the Hebrew you see the woman was already pregnant in verse 14.There are also other proofs that Isa.7:14 was never a prophecy of a supposed virgin born Jesus. Now lets look at Micah 5:2 this is also pulled out of context by the writer of Matthew. If you read Micah 5:1-6 in context you see this was about a military leader which Jesus never was. Verse 1 mentions troops, verse 6 shows the land of Assyria wasted by war, so this was about a military leader. Anytime you see the word Ephratah connected to the word Bethlehem it does not mean the town of Bethlehem it means the man named Bethlehem who had a cult called Bethlehem Ephatrah named after him as seen in Ruth 1:1-2 and other places in the O.T. Notice they were called Ephrathites Ruth 1:2. The writer of Matthew in Matt.2:6 delibertly leaves out the word Ephratah and adds the word Juda to make it seem Micah 5:2 meant the town of Bethlehem. Which also means the writer of Matthew knowingly lied.
Then you wonder in #3 below where i got my info on archaeology, i sure didn’t get it from biased lying christian sites like evidently you do. For over 100 years archaeologists have dug in the Nazareth area, at first Catholic claimed archaeoilogists dug there and claimed to have found proof that Nazareth existed in the first century, then honest archaeologists looked over their claims and diggings and found they were pre-dating and post-dating the very same artifacts. Honest archaeologists have proved the town of Nazareth did not exist in the first century, therefore without the town of Nazareth in the first century there could have been no Jesus of Nazareth in the first century. That and also some other proofs prove the 4 gospels were not even writen in the first century, they are writings from the second half of the second century, christianity likes to claim they are first century writings to make them seem more reliable, but you lie about that also.
About #4.below. Nowhere in the 4 gospels whoever wrote them do they claim that they themselves were eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion or resurrection, how could they even if they were writen by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (which they were not) your N.T. says the desciples all fled in fear before the crucifixtion. You have no known eyewitnesses to the supposed crucifixtion or resurrection all you have is 4 writers claiming some un-known eyewitness told them about it.
#6.below, you have no evidence that the body was ever in the tomb, i ask you now to send me contemporary evidence that Jesus the miracle worker, crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus ever existed as a flesh and blood person.
#7.below all you have concerning martyrs of christians comes from the Catholic church traditional claims. Neither Jesus, the 12 desciples, Mary, Joseph or Paul are in any reliable history.
#8.Under a Catholic church in Italy is a Mithra cavern WRITEN ON THE WALLS of that cavern is the same words exactly as is writen in 1Cor.11:23-27 and writen there for the worship of Mithra before christianity, and you should know there were also babtisms done in sun god rituals long before christianity came along.
#9. there was some growth in christianity before Constantine made it a state religion but not as much as christian apologetics like to claim. You need investigation and research outside of christian biased apologetic sites i can tell you those sites lie more than they tell the truth. I’ll be waiting for contemporary proof that Jesus the miracle worker crucified and resurrected from the dead ever existed as a flesh and blood earth walking person.
In Real Truth, Jay
P.S. I spent 32 years in christianity so i know your Bible well, now i have spent 20 years dis-proving it, using 1 Thess.5:21.
November 17, 2012
I have done unbiased research. It seems to me that it is your research that is clearly biased.
I cannot prove there is a God based on your naturalistic presuppositions. An understanding of belief in God requires the use of theistic presuppositions, not naturalistic ones. You have already read much of the evidence for God’s existence, but ultimately the proof is personal – I know him in a personal relationship.
Your definition of faith is quite faulty. What about the faith you have in your naturalistic beliefs? Is that also “belief despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?” Where did the material come from that makes up material reality (you know, the stuff that came out of the big bang)? How did life originate out of inorganic matter? How did consciousness emerge out of non-consciousness? There is no science that can even begin to address these questions, yet you seem to believe in Naturalism.
If you know so much about Christian theology, I really shouldn’t have to answer the question about the mess on earth. The answer to that is actually one of the central concepts of the Christian faith (check out the Fall).
Your speculation about the “creation of God” has no basis in reality. It is an interesting story that is based on your naturalistic presuppositions, but you cannot demonstrate that your interpretation is true. Prove the presuppositions and you might have something. Until then, you have no evidence that you are giving a correct interpretation of history. Did it never occur to you the reason other civilizations have similar stories is because the original story was true and was simply distorted in some of the ancient accounts? Your observations have certainly not discredited the biblical record.
I understand your approach to interpreting Old Testament passages. You are certainly not the first person to try and use those arguments. However, there are other hermeneutical approaches which allow the kind of interpretation found in Scripture. Perhaps you need to do a little more study to learn to interpret beyond what you favor.
Your assertions about Nazareth are simply not valid. I know there are those who have made claims in this regard, but these claims are all speculative based on presuppositions that cannot be demonstrated. The arguments in these speculations cannot be objectively verified.
Your assertions about the gospels is also purely speculative. Again, you have created a story line based on presuppositions you cannot demonstrate to be true.
The evidence that the resurrection is true is way stronger than your objections based on your presuppositions which don’t have any backing except the objections of people like yourself who refuse to believe God exists. Your objections have no objective basis whatsoever. You don’t believe it because your default position is that it not possible. However, if God does exist, it certainly is possible.
Really, most of the entire last part of your rant is nothing more than speculative imagination. You begin with the presupposition that the natural universe is all that exists and discount anything to do with the supernatural based on your presuppositions, not on actual evidence. Prove your presuppositions and you might have something, but until then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
You are certainly free to believe what you want. There are many people all over the world who believe false things. I find that belief in God is credible based on my personal relationship with him. And, as I mentioned before, if God really does exist and he is the God of the Bible, all of the things that I have expressed are clearly plausible. It would be a fantastic thing for your life if you began to open yourself up to him.
November 18, 2012
The thread is getting to long since you keep replying instead of seperatring the emails after a few., so i am answering your last email with a new email. You sure show your christian attitude in this last email here is a list of insults you call me in your last email. I have false conclussions, i have a naturalistic view, skewed understanding, i am speaking out of ignorance, assertions, poor argument, discredit myself, speculation, unsubstainated, i don’t have real understanding. Did you ever stop to think that in all those accusations you have never refuted a thing i have said, all you have done is claim ignorantly all the things you called me listed above. Which shows you know you can’t refute what i have said you can only slur me.
Seems like you forget or never have known 1 Peter 3:15.Your slurs only prove your ignorance, if your Bible is so infallible and you have a personal relationship with god you should be able to refute what i say easily without slurs. You never asked me if i had naturalistic views you only have over and over accused me of that. The only view i have is the REAL TRUTH on any subject.
You claim the Bible is historical which it is not, have you ever looked into what a historian must do or prove before any document can be proved historical? I know you haven’t because of the claims you make. One of the very first things a historian must prove is are the writings from a historical known to have lived person. The second thing to know if you are using someone elses writings about a second person is to know if this person existed or would have known the first person he is writing about. The claimed authors of all the books in the Bible are guessed at the actual writers are anonymous writers, in fact if you study your Bible closely you will find things added into the original writings as society’s changed, so no telling how many different people added things to the original version. It is easy to see the apostle John did not write the gospel of John, the desciple (apostle) John was an un-educated fisherman, the writer of the gospel John was an accomplished well educated scholar. All you have to do is a small research and it is well known the 4 gospel writers are anonymous writers. The names Matthew, Mark, Luke & John were not claimed to be the authors until at least 150 years after they were supposedly writen, and then the church only named them by those names to make them seem more reliable, because nowhere in them do they claim who wrote them. The titles above them show they are anonymous writers they say “ACCORDING TO “not writen by so and so. So i am sending proof so don’t use words like unsubstainiated, assertions, & speculation.
Call Philo’s lack of mentioning Jesus an offer from silence if you want to however his lack of mentioning Jesus screams loudly at christianity. Yes i know Josephus was a real person, he shows up in real history, however it takes pure ignorance to claim he wrote the paragraphs about Jesus, those paragraphs were added (INTERPOLATED) no doubt by Eusebius in about 350 A.D. How do i know that? Because Justin Martyr quoted from Josephus a lot in his writings about 150 A.D. and had every reason in the world to quote the Jesus paragraphs in his efforts to convert pagans, Martyr didn’t quote them because they were not in Josephus writings yet in 150 A.D. Also Origen (early church father) wrote that Josephus was not believing in Jesus. Josephus died a believing Jew never, ever would he have wrote the Jesus paragraphs. And another proof that the Jesus paragraphs was inserted into Josephus writings later is because they interrupt the story flow of what Josephus was writing about, remove them and the story flows like it should. It’s a christian apologetic lie that Josephus wrote anything about Jesus. I have sent proofs of what i have said, you have sent no proofs only slurs in your supposed answers. Try leaving the slurs out and refute what i say, you never even mention most of what i sent, nothing about the virgin birth (Isa.7:14) nothing about Micah 5:2, nothing about the Bible saying the earth has foundations and can not be moved, i call your emails the christian bait and switch, don’t try to refute just throw in slurs or switch the subject.
In Real Honest Truth,
November 19, 2012
How is pointing out mistakes you have made an insult? Based on your definition, any counter argument I make becomes an insult. If you are going to play that game, I guess we can’t have a conversation.
But, let’s just cut to the chase. First, I have countered most of the things you have said. It is just that you don’t like the way I have countered them. You see, we could play your game for the next six months – you make a claim and I counter. Frankly, I don’t like that game. So, I chose a different approach. Instead of addressing each of your objections, I have addressed your methodology. And what I wrote last time applies to this e-mail, as well. Your entire approach to biblical interpretation and the interpretation of other historical writings is purely speculative. You pretend to know the purposes of various authors by what they have not written and what you think they ought to have written. You pretend to know the education of John. You make claims about dates based on presuppositions which you can’t demonstrate to be true. You interpret particular Bible passages and use historical arguments based on a naturalistic hermeneutic without ever backing up your naturalistic beliefs. What you call proof is pure speculation. If you can demonstrate that your worldview presuppositions are valid, I would feel compelled to answer every one of your objections. But until you do that, we will be speaking different languages. You are expecting me to defend theistic beliefs based naturalistic presuppositions and it simply doesn’t work that way.
As to your objection to my saying you are basing everything on naturalistic presuppositions, I am willing to be convinced otherwise. What is your worldview foundation? You obviously don’t believe in the God of the Bible, so that rules out Christian Theism. You haven’t given any indication that you believe in any God, to I ruled out any other kind of Theism as well as Animism. You haven’t referred to any kind of pantheistic/monistic belief. In fact, all of your assertions seem to come right out of Naturalism. Tell me if I am wrong and I will be happy to adjust my thinking.
The real honest truth is that Jesus Christ was an objectively real person who lived on earth. He was actually God who incarnated as a human being for the purpose of becoming a substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of mankind in order to provide a way for us to enter into a personal relationship with God. In spite of your current doubt, you can know him too if you are willing. It is my prayer that you would make that eternal life altering decision for yourself.
November 19, 2012
Let me tell you something STUBBORN FREDDY, You point out my supposed mistakes by explanation of why they are mistakes, not by claiming speculation, assertions e.t.c. which evidently you have no clue of how to do that. It is you who is playing the dumb game. You have countered nothing, ZERO of anything i have sent and you know it. You so far are the most ignorant apologetic i have ran across and i have writen hundreds of apologetics. If you don’t like the game then stop playing it and answer the questions.
Can you refute me that Isa.7:14 was never about a virgin birth of Jesus, can you refute me that Micah 5:2 is not about where a Messiah was to be born, can you explain why your Bible says the earth has foundations and can not be moved, the fact is you have sent nothing that refutes anything i have said, all you know how to do is slur. So i don’t mind if i slur you back now, but all the apologetics i have contacted say they do not want ad homein attacks. You can pretend and lie that you have countered what i have said but that only makes you a stinking liar. I do hate liars that’s what started my biblical research in the first place. I do not pretend to know the education of John it’s your N.T. that says his trade was a fisherman and any idiot even you should know that fishermen were not scholars. I use historical writings just as they are writen except for the easily proved FRAUDS in Josephus.
You and other christians have waited 2000 years for your sun god Jesus to return and every generation for 2000 years has had some idiot (many idiots) claiming he would return in their lifetime, he will not return in a million years except when the sun comes up each morning. It is hard to understand why christians can’t figure out that christianity is nothing but paganism. Christianity did not defeat paganism it became the new paganism. Everything in christianity comes from paganism, Christmas, Easter, dying and resurrecting Savior sun gods, Communion, Babtism and much more is straight out of paganism that the ancients worshipped and did long, long before christianity came along. If you don’t know what paganism is it is SUN GOD WORSHIP. Read Jer.10:2-5 for an early version of CHRISTS-MASS, there it is condemned, read Ezek.8:14-17 for a condemnation of what later was called Easter (from the sun god Ishtar) notice it is an Easter sunrise service they faced the East and worshipped the SUN. Christianity copied, adopted, counterfeited it all from the pagans to Jesus, you can call a Zebra a horse but it’s stripes show it is a lie.
Christianity has lied from it’s very begining and continues to lie now. We have over 500 different christian denominations in the U.S.A. all of you reading the same Bible and all of you coming to different conclussions about what it says and all of you claiming only you are correct in your understanding. Do you actually think a god who supposedly knows everything in advance would send such a dividing book, when it says there should not be divisions among you? Do you know 2 of the early church fathers Irenaeus and Papias say Jesus was not crucified but lived to be an old man dying of old age. Guys like you like and other apologetics like to sweep statements like that under your feet and ignore them and hope no one finds them. Now if you want to carry this farther send some real evidence not just your biblical mind controlled, biblical brainwashed blind faith theorys, all you are doing is showing complete ignorance sending slurs shows you have nothing but a childish mind.
In Real HONEST TRUTH,
November 19, 2012
Now look at who is being insulting – “stubborn Freddy,” “playing the dumb game,” “ignorant apologetic,” “stinking liar,” “idiot.” My, my, my, you seem to be getting really angry about having your wrong assumptions questioned.
Truly, if you have written hundreds of people, then you have already received the answers I would give you about each of the issues you have brought up. You say I have not answered your taunts, but I have. I have questioned the very approach of your attacks and you have yet to justify that your methodology is valid. You have not given one bit of hard evidence that your hermeneutic is true. In fact, in response to my direct questions about your faith, all you have returned is silence.
The fact that the various verses you quote have a double meaning speaks to your assertions about prophesy. The fact that the Bible uses figures of speech speaks to your assertions about the foundations of the earth. The fact that John was a fisherman does not preclude him also having an education. You continue to make assumptions about ancient documents that do not necessarily lead to your conclusions about them. Your assertions about Jesus being a Sun God is just plain craziness. You not liking how I answer you does not mean that my answers are invalid.
But the truth is, you have come to me without provocation whatsoever, and without me even having any idea who you are you have laid on a blistering attack. I don’t think it is unreasonable at all for me to insist that you justify your beliefs. You obviously attack from a naturalistic worldview foundation, so I insist that you justify your faith in Naturalism. What experimental science do you have to demonstrate that the universe can exist without having been made by a creator? Where did the material come from that the universe is made of? How did life originate without a creator God? How did consciousness emerge out of non-consciousness? I want to know what objective science you have to demonstrate that the foundations of your beliefs have any credibility at all. If you can show that to me, then I will humbly give in to your assertions. Until then, your faith sounds as crazy to me as my faith seems to sound to you.
The truth is, God does exist and he loves you in spite of your current hostility. In fact, he incarnated himself as a human being and through his death and resurrection provided the means for you to have that hostility removed and enter into a personal relationship with him. I continue to pray for you that you may come to know him.
November 19, 2012
If you had any sense at all it was explained to you that since you were hurling insults i was going to use the same thing with you. All i am angry with is the lack of any answers from you, you are correct saying you questioned the approach of my writings but that is not answers. One would think the way you write that your supposed Holy Spirit was like having ESP and that you understand what i mean and say before you even read it. My approach has nothing whatsoever to do with answers ,DUM, DUM. ISA.7:14 has no double meaning or dual prophecy only an idiot would add that to what it says. And talking about ignorance your own N.T. shows you the gospels are writen by anonymous wrtiters “ACCORDING TO” means it was supposed to be writen by someone else according to what they heard, second hand or made up, take your choice.
I responded to what you wrongly say is my faith, i said my only purpose was to find the TRUTH. But you are to dumb to even read correctly. Someone that has no history despite your N.T. saying that multitudes followed him around, he was known far and wide he supposedly fed 5000 at one time, and to say no historian or philosopher would mention these earth shaking events is pure stupidity. There were plenty of historians and philosophers living and writing right during Jesus supposed time some living in the Jerusalem area, so it takes pure stupidity to think these historians wrote about small things but did not write about miracles, dead people rising from the dead, a crucifixtion, then Jesus rising from the dead, ascending to heaven is completely ignorant, every one of them would have writen about such events had it actually have happened. No historian or philosopher wrote about the day of Pentecost but yet Acts 2:1-15 even though it claims every nation under heaven was there and names a bunch of nations, more ignorance is to believe no one wrote this event down in any history when there supposedly was a mighty wind, cloven tongues of fire and people talked in different tongues (other languages). If you believe that would you be interested in buying aome ocean front property from me in Arizona? I’ll give you a good price on it. I have sent evidence on what i have sent you just refuse to investigate and research it afaid of what you’d find. A one track mind like yours is impossible to convince no matter how much evidence is sent. Your problem like most apologetics is your stubborn head thinks only you are correct. But you are not all you are is big, big liar. You are the one that brought on these insults because you first called me all of the dumb names you called me earlier, s o i have every right to insult you back., The truth is the truth Jesus is a SUN GOD, you can’t prove he ever existed, when he was born, when he supposedly died, historical people have records , Jesus has nothing he wrote himself, no artifacts, no coins or anyone who knew him except the fabricated 4 gospels.
I did not come to you without provacation you put what you wrote on your internet site for the public to see, you just hoped christians or leaning christians would be all that read your decietful garbage, i have every right to respond to what you provoked. I don’t know who you are either
DUM, DUM, I only know what you wrote in a public forum. Don’t start on me about my hostility it’s exactly what you caused.
Your god (if it were so) is a dumb god, it takes a dumb god to turn a millions of year old entity (supposed Satan) loose on newly created supposed Adam & Eve then blame all future descendants for their supposed FALL. And just as dumb is for you believe such ancient legends, myths, fables and tales. If there is a god it certainly isn’t the god of the O.T. or Jesus of the N.T. nor is it the gods of any of this worlds other religions, everyone of these bounced of ancient sun god legends, myths, fables and tales. Including christianity and the Jewish religion. Maybe you should investigat and research how the earth and all these billions of stars and planets and man came about from a scientific view point, it may not be all correct but it sure is better than the badly flawed Bible view. It doesn’t matter what i say because your mind is set on myths and fables, you have to do your own open minded research. Do you know it’s harder to un-learn stuff you’ve stuck in your mind than it is to learn the Real Truth first. I know it took me over 8 years to rid my mind of biblical mind control, biblical brainwashing and blind faith.
The Real Provable Truth,
November 19, 2012
I’m sorry you interpreted my corrections to your errors as insults. They were certainly not meant to be such.
You continue to write things that either are based on a hermeneutic that I don’t accept (and will continue to find lacking until you are ready to back it up – which you have basically refused to do), or on things which simply are false.
1. Your insults about my beliefs and the traditional approach to hermeneutics does not prove your point in any way.
2. The fact that the author’s names are not in the text does not necessarily mean that the gospels were anonymous or that the churches didn’t know who wrote them. Yours is an unsupported assertion.
3. The fact that there are no outside records about Jesus also proves nothing. There could have been documents that have not survived. And the fact that those which do have no mention of Jesus also proves nothing. There could be all kinds of reasons there is no mention of Jesus in these particular documents. Your assertions are pure speculation. You have no way of proving anything you are saying on this point. (You might want to hold onto your property in Arizona).
4. Your assertion about Jesus being a Sun God is as silly now as it was when you first made it.
5. Are you serious? Me putting something on the web is a provocation? Is everything on the web that you disagree with a provocation to you? You are certainly welcome to respond any time, but until you can prove that your approach to understanding Christianity is true, you only embarrass yourself.
6. Your pronouncements about the nature of God, of Jesus, of Satan, of the biblical narrative do not reflect Christian theology in any sense. You are making accusations based on things that I don’t even believe. This in itself totally discredits your taunts.
7. Your attempt to say something about a scientific point of view doesn’t even really make sense. That is what I was questioning you about before. There is no “scientific viewpoint” concerning the origin of matter, life and consciousness. The naturalistic point of view that you are espousing is a religious point of view, and you are following it without having any understanding of it whatsoever. And you say I am brainwashed and have blind faith? That is sure the pot calling the kettle black.
Deny it all you want, but Jesus Christ was an objectively real person who was God incarnate. He died on the cross as a sacrifice for your sin because he loved you. You can actually come to know him in a personal relationship if you will.
November 20, 2012
Let me tell you something Freddy the Free Loader,
You are to dumb to talk to you never get close to answering the subjects i send, all you want to do is use stupid words like assumptions,, assertions, hermenuetic, naturalistic that you use for a cover up for pure stupidity, those words have nothing whatsoever to do with facts it just shows you are full of HOGWASH. You have sent me nothing but assumptions, speculations, assertions you haven’t sent one word of facts, evidenc or proof, all you have sent me is accusations using BULLSHIT words that don’t even approach any of the subjects. Are you to damn dumb to realize those accusations using words like hermenuetic and naturalistic to answer me is pure BULLSHIT and worse than ignorance and stupidity, it makes me wonder if you don’t need to see a shrink. I demonstrated you are wrong over and over, it’s a fact not an assumption or assertion that NO ONE, ZERO knows who wrote the 4 gospels. It’s a fact not an assumption or assertion. there is no contemporary evidence or proof that a miracle working, crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus ever existed, it’s a fact not speculation or assertion that you can not prove whether there is or is not a god. So stop saying i only assume or speculate, it just proves you are a liar. You need a hermenuetic stuck up your ass it has nothing to do with the subjects i brought up and neither does Naturalistic. Truth is truth without you trying to show off your education by going off track the subject using such words.
I can tell all your supposed education comes from a christian seminar which teaches you how to lie and cover up the bible tales. You have ZERO common sense. Why don’t you demonstrate to me contemporary proof of Jesus, stop lying about the gospels being writen by the claimed authors, prove to me you know there is god because he has audibly talked to you and that he is not invisible. Prove to me that ISA.7:14 IS A PROPHECY ABOUT A VIRGIN BIRTH, DON’T GIVE ME MOUTHFUL OF BULLSHIT about hermenuetic and naturalism. I am to smart for BULLSHIT that avoids the subject completely. My mind is to smart to fall for any faith, faith without proof and evidence is worthless. Yes Christ loves me i couldn’t eat or stay warm without the SUN. I am leaving now to take my beagle dogs rabbit hunting, so i won’t be here till probably dark to listen to your hot air, lot’s more fun than reading your ignorant garbage. Un less you are able to send some proof about the above subjects instead of assumptions, speculations and using hermeneutic and naturalistic garbage you don’t need to answer this i already know dumb and full of shit you are.
November 20, 2012
Oh, I see, you want to challenge anyone who doesn’t agree with you, but when someone challenges your beliefs your get all ticked off. You are the one who came here challenging me. If you can’t handle the conversation, you might want to rethink your strategy.
You can call my challenges hogwash and use all of the expletives you want, but it doesn’t prove your case. I realize that you don’t like the answers that I gave you, but every one of them is a legitimate counter to your claims. To this point, all you have done is make assertions that you have not backed up and have not shown that your interpretive approach is better than mine. You have done nothing but spew out talking points that you have read from other people’s flawed arguments without demonstrating how you know they represent reality. I have given you every chance to back up your claims and all you have done is avoid that conversation and get mad. I’m sorry, but unless you can do better than that, you don’t have anything legitimate to say.
I do continue, however, to encourage you to consider the possibility that you really do need God. Human beings are way more than mere matter and energy. We truly are spiritual beings who have a connection to a transcendent reality. Fortunately for us, God has reached out from that transcendent position to reveal himself to us. You can still know him if you are willing.
November 20, 2012
Dumb ass i told you i don’t have beliefs, i do truths not beliefs you can’t even understand or immedieately forget simple statements. You didn’t challenge me because you never approached any subjects, and you never gave one answer. And where the hell did you get your ignorant talking points? I know from some christian seminar that only taught you to lie. I backed up my claims that’s why you never refuted what i said, talk about spewing out pure garbage and answering ZERO. Anyone that asserts, speculates that he has a personal relationship with god i should have known didn’t have much smarts. Why don’t you back up your claims where is your evidence fo a historical Jesus, where is your proof that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the 4 gospels. The real truth is you know you have no proof for either. So all you can do is try to change the subject to anything other than the subject. Why should i turn to your invisable supernatural supposed sky god he never answered one prayer in 32 years even when i prayed with tears running down my face. Your supposed god never answered a prayer in WW2 American mothers were praying for the war to end and for their sons to come home safe, German mothers were praying to the same god for the same reasons, but the war did not stop until the atomic bomb was dropped, your god would not and could not do one thing.
You think your god can do anything but if he as most christians think can control the weather he blows your churches down with hurricanes and tornado’s and kills supposed christians. Believe have faith if you want to but your god is merciless. Christians during the Inqisition and Crusades plus down through the ages burned up people tied to stakes murdered millions of people in the name of your god to enforce the christian religion, your god did nothing to stop it because he didn’t exist, he coudn’t make christians out of them with his supposed authority himself, so he let christians murder them. I have no desire to coddle to an imaginary cruel god like your bible god that you believe in. I have no reason to listen to your lie spewing mouth anymore not because you won the debate but because you don’t know how to debate or how to even try to refute me. GOODBYE AND GOOD RIDANCE.
November 20, 2012
My, my, you have really lost it, haven’t you? I’m sorry you don’t like the answers I have given, and that you have no retort but to lash out rather than defend your position. But that is what happens when you make assertions that you can’t back up.
You still don’t get it, do you? You are so wrapped up in your tunnel vision approach to understanding reality that when presented with other possibilities, not only do you not understand it, but you lash out at it, too.
You can continue all you want to make assertions that cannot be backed up and you will continue to live in the emptiness that obviously characterizes your life. I am truly sorry for you on that front.
I understand that you are rebellious toward God. Based on the rants you have made about him, I certainly understand the reason. The things you say about God are things which are figments of your imagination, and do not represent the God who is revealed in the Bible. You are expecting things from him that do not line up with the way he actually interacts with people. You are reading the Bible using beliefs which don’t represent reality. Your beliefs about prayer and the supernatural are certainly characteristic of something, but not of what is written in the Bible. If God were the kind of person represented by your rants, I assure you, I wouldn’t want anything to do with him either. But that is not the God of the Bible.
I truly hope that at some point you will be able to move past the obvious rage that you hold inside and open your heart to the true God. If you ever find yourself in a position to do that, you will find a kind of peace that you could never imagine. I truly wish you the best and am praying for you.
November 21, 2012
You might be a Christian if… – Aaron Kinney Permalink 88 comments trackback
22) You think you defend your worldview successfully, but your two main arguments are based on circular reasoning (The Bible is true because the Bible says…) and ad hominem attacks (Everyone already knows God is real, and those who deny it are lying to themselves).
21) You always try to observe the ten commandments like Exodus 20:7, but you never try to observe the punishments like Leviticus 24:16.
20) You trust a book written by sheepherders in a time when humans thought the world was flat and that women determined the gender of offspring, but you don’t trust a book written in modern times by a scientist.
19) You believe that fear of God and love of God are compatible and even complimentary.
18) You believe that a material universe created ex nihilo by an eternal, immaterial God makes more sense than an eternal, material universe itself.
17) You believe that a being that creates flawed, imperfect, and evil entities can be all loving and all wise.
16) You think that a story involving a God who sacrifices himself to himself in order to circumvent a law he created himself that would have forced him to send his own flawed creations to a Hell he created himself makes perfect sense.
15) You think two wrongs make a right in that everyone is born guilty, and that spilling innocent blood provides redemption for this inherent guilt.
14) You deny the first law of thermodynamics, and champion the second law of thermodynamics.
13) You claim that faith (belief in things unevidenced) is required for salvation, but you attempt to prove Christianity with material evidence every chance you get.
12) You insist that God is responsible for everything in the universe, and then insist that original sin is Adam’s fault and that Satan was responsible for his own rebellion.
11) You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
10) You feel that the theory that people evolved from other life forms trivializes and cheapens humanity, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt and ribs.
9) You claim that God’s love is all encompassing and unconditional, and the only condition is that you admit worthlessness and submit fully to his will.
8) Your cringe when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” — including women, children, and trees!
7) You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
6) You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of generations old.
5) You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects — will spend eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
4) While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
3) You state that prayers are always answered even if the exact opposite of what you pray for happens.
2) Despite the fact that prisons and mental institutions have a higher percentage of Christians than the general population, and college educated people have a higher percentage of atheism than the general population, you claim that Christianity will improve ones moral code and quality of life; you claim that Christians are better people. Then when presented with this contrary evidence, you claim that the devil is to blame for this “deception”.
1) Your grandest wish is for God/Jesus to come down from heaven and initiate an apocalypse, yet again committing near total genocide on all of humanity.
November 21, 2012
Cute, but it doesn’t speak at all to the truth or falsity of anything. If you read each one, all you see are unsupported assertions and misinterpretations of biblical concepts. Making arguments that don’t even reflect what Christians really believe truly has no meaning whatsoever. I’m sure it makes you feel better to put it out there, but there is no truth or reality in it.
It is truly unfortunate that you have stooped to merely throwing out insults when your quality of life and your eternity are at stake. God really does love you and would love for your to enter into a relationship with him. I continue to pray that you would be able to move past your anger and into the peace of God.
November 21, 2012
Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote around the middle of the second century and makes more than three hundred quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books; but none from the Four Gospels. – In the latter half of the second century, between the time of Justin and Papias, and the time of Theophilus and Irenaeus, the Four Gospels were undoubtedly written or compiled.
There are extant writings accredited to the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp; written, for the most part, early in the second century. These writings contain no mention of the Four Gospels. This also is admitted by Christian scholars. Dr. Dodwell says: “We have at this day certain most authentic ecclesiastical writers of the times, as Clemens Romanus, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp, who wrote in the order wherein I have named them, and after all the writers of the New Testament. But in Hermas you will not find one passage or any mention of the New Testament, nor in all the rest is any one of the Evangelists named” (Dissertations upon Irenaeus).
The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than three hundred quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the Four Gospels. The Rev. Dr. Giles says: “The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are never mentioned by him [Justin] — do not occur once in all his writings” (Christian Records, p. 71).
Papias, another noted Father, was a contemporary of Justin. He refers to writings of Matthew and Mark, but his allusions to them clearly indicate that they were not the Gospels of Matthew and Mark. Dr. Davidson, the highest English authority on the canon, says: “He [Papias] neither felt the want nor knew the existence of inspired Gospels” (Canon of the Bible, p. 123).
Theophilus, who wrote after the middle of the latter half of the second century, mentions the Gospel of John, and Irenaeus, who wrote a little later, mentions all of the Gospels, and makes numerous quotations from them. In the latter half of the second century, then, between the time of Justin and Papias, and the time of Theophilus and Irenaeus, the Four Gospels were undoubtedly written or compiled.
These books are anonymous. They do not purport to have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Their titles do not affirm it. They simply imply that they are “according” to the supposed teachings of these Evangelists. As Renan says, “They merely signify that these were the traditions proceeding from each of these Apostles, and claiming their authority.” Concerning their authorship the Rev. Dr. Hooykaas says: “They appeared anonymously. The titles placed above them in our Bibles owe their origin to a later ecclesiastical tradition which deserves no confidence whatever” (Bible for Learners, Vol. III, p. 24).
It is claimed that the Gospel of Matthew originally appeared in Hebrew. Our version is a translation of a Greek work. Regarding this St. Jerome says: “Who afterwards translated it into Greek is not sufficiently certain.” The consequences of this admission are thus expressed by Michaelis: “If the original text of Matthew is lost, and we have nothing but a Greek translation then, frankly, we cannot ascribe any divine inspiration to the words.”
The contents of these books refute the claim that they were written by the Evangelists named. They narrate events and contain doctrinal teachings which belong to a later age. Matthew ascribes to Christ the following language: “Thou art Peter, and Upon this rock I will build my Church” (xvi, 18). This Gospel is a Roman Catholic Gospel, and was written after the beginning of the establishment of this hierarchy to uphold the supremacy of the Petrine Church of Rome. Of this Gospel Dr. Davidson says : “The author, indeed, must ever remain unknown’. (Introduction to New Testament, p. 72).
The Gospel of Luke is addressed to Theophilus. Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch, who is believed to be the person addressed, flourished in the latter half of the second century.
Dr. Schleiermacher, one of Germany’s greatest theologians, after a critical analysis of Luke, concludes that it is merely a compilation, made up of thirty-three preexisting manuscripts. Bishop Thirlwall’s Schleiermacher says: “He [Luke] is from beginning to end no more than the compiler and arranger of documents which he found in existence” (p. 313).
The basis of this Gospel is generally believed to be the Gospel of Marcion, a Pauline compilation, made about the middle of the second century. Concerning this Gospel, the Rev. S. Baring-Gould in his Lost and Hostile Gospels, says: “The arrangement is so similar that we are forced to the conclusion that it was either used by St. Luke or that it was his original composition. If he used it then his right to the title of author of the Third Gospel falls to the ground, as what he added was of small amount.”
Mark, according to Renan, is the oldest of the Gospels; but Mark, according to Strauss, was written after the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were written. He says: “It is evidently a compilation, whether made from memory or otherwise, from the first and third Gospels” (Leben Jesu, p. 5I). Judge Waite, in his History of Christianity, says that all but twenty-four verses of this Gospel have their parallels in Matthew and Luke. Davidson declares it to be an anonymous work “The author,” he says, “is unknown.”
Omitting the last twelve verses of Mark, which all Christian critics pronounce spurious, the book contains no mention of the two great miracles which mark the limits of Christ’s earthly career, his miraculous birth and his ascension.
Concerning the first three Gospels, the Encyclopedia Britannica says: “It is certain that the Synoptic Gospels took their present form only by degrees.” Of these books Dr. Westcott says: “Their substance is evidently much older than their form.” Professor Robertson Smith pronounces them “unapostolic digests of the second century.”
The internal evidence against the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel is conclusive. The Apostle John did not write it. John, the apostle, was a Jew; the author of the Fourth Gospel was not a Jew. John was born at Bethsaida; the author of the Fourth Gospel did not know where Bethsaida was located. John was an uneducated fisherman; the author of this Gospel was an accomplished scholar. Some of the most important events in the life of Jesus, the Synoptics declare, were witnessed by John; the author of this knows nothing of these events. The Apostle John witnessed the crucifixion; the author of this Gospel did not. The Apostles, including John, believed Jesus to be a man; the author of the Fourth Gospel believed him to be a god.
November 21, 2012
I think we have already been over this ground. I don’t know where you get your information, but all four of the gospels are quoted by church fathers such as Clement of Rome around 95 AD, Epistle of Barnabas before 110 AD, and Ignatius around 117 AD. Not only are they quoted long before you say they were written, they are used as authoritative scripture. I think you are using sources which are simply not valid.
Also, as has been explained already (I hate having to repeat myself) the fact that the documents themselves are anonymous means literally nothing. You assertion that this proves they were not written by those to whom they are attributed is simply your assertion without anything to back it up. It literally proves nothing.
The fact that there was a bishop Theopholis in the second century also proves nothing. Do you think he was the only Theopholis that ever lived? How may Jays have existed in the world over the last 100 years? Does the fact that you name is Jay mean that no other Jays ever lived before you? What a nonsensical argument.
I could go on, but I found the document you copied and pasted into this e-mail so I don’t think I will waste my time doing it. It is an excerpt written by John E. Remsberg, a 19th century atheist. He quotes in the article Rev. Dr. Hooykaas, a Christ Myth Theory adherent, Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher, an adherent of higher criticism, Sabine Baring-Gould who even Schleirmacher discounted, and Arthur Waite, a mystic who wrote extensively on the occult and another Christ Myth Theory adherent. All of these people lived and wrote in the 18th and 19th centuries. If this is your idea of authoritative information, you are in very sad shape.
All you have done is proven once again that you have begun with naturalistic presuppositions to make your arguments – and this time backed it up based on the writings of people who are demonstrably biased Naturalists. There is, literally, no objective scholarship in anything you have written. So, once again, if you want your arguments to have any credibility at all, you are going to have to back up your naturalistic presuppositions. Until you can do that, you have truly said nothing and your frequent salutation of “Real Truth” rings totally hollow.
I don’t know what has gotten into your life that has made you such an angry man, but do know that the objectively real person Jesus Christ can give peace to your spirit if you ever decided to invite him into your life. I pray that you will deeply consider it.
November 21, 2012
This you will notice is partly a quotation from your MOTHER the Roman CATHOLIC CHURCH, they show that you are a liar both about when and who wrote the 4 gospels.
It has often been emphasized that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical realities. The Church agrees, saying:
“Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)
The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings, “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias , Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD” (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is some 350 years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of the biggest black holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there were no New Testaments until the fourth century: they were not written until then, and here we find evidence of the greatest misrepresentation of all time.
Gospel authors exposed as imposters
There is something else involved in this scenario and it is recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia. An appreciation of the clerical mindset arises when the Church itself admits that it does not know who wrote its Gospels and Epistles, confessing that all 27 New Testament writings began life anonymously:
“It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the evangelists themselves … they [the New Testament collection] are supplied with titles which, however anci ent, do not go back to the respective authors of those writings.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 655-6)
The Church maintains that “the titles of our Gospels were not intended to indicate authorship”, adding that “the headings … were affixed to them” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. i, p. 117, vol. vi, pp. 655, 656). Therefore they are not Gospels written “according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John”, as publicly stated. The full force of this confession reveals that there are no genuine apostolic Gospels, and that the Church’s shadowy writings today embody the very ground and pillar of Christian foundations and faith. The consequences are fatal to the pretence of Divine origin of the entire New Testament and expose Christian texts as having no special authority. For centuries, fabricated Gospels bore Church certification of authenticity now confessed to be false, and this provides evidence that Christian writings are wholly fallacious.
November 21, 2012
This one is as bad as the last one you sent. Is this the way you always operate? Get refuted on one point and just ignore the refutation and send another bogus copied and pasted document written by a non-objective, non-scholar Atheist – (Tony Bushby, seriously)? Your entire production has been exposed. If you ever want anyone to take you seriously, you are going to have to start doing research using legitimate scholarship.
I really don’t know what your problem is, but you really ought to get some help with your anger issues. It will send you to an early grave – and an early date with an eternity separated from God. I really hope you can get some help.
November 22, 2012
You dunb ass the if you had any sense at all you’d see he shows you where it’s at in The Catholic Encycyclopedia. There are hundreds of other sites on the internet and books in the library that prove it different ways that no one, ZERO knows who wrote the 4 gospels and proving they are later writings. To show how stupid and ignorant you are you don’t even need someone else’s studies to know no one knows who wrote the 4 gospels and prove they are anonymous writers no where in them do they say who wrote them and if you had any smarts at all you’d know there were dozens of gospels writen in the first and second centuries that they pulled parts out of that suited the church’s teachings. to use in the 4 gospels and N.T. All you do is lie and believe no one else’s research but your apologetic and biased Bible believing supposed scholars who are easily proved liars also. I don’t need to spend my time with such a dumb ass ignoramus as you are that has nothing but biblical mind control who like other christians have sat around for 2000 years waiting for the sun god Jesus to return. Idiots like you a million years from now will probably be spewing out these same lies. I do not assert or speculate this, it is an easily proved truth once religious blinders are removed from your blind eyes. There are plenty of other un-biased scholars who have researched and investigated biblical claims who know biblical supposed scholars are lying through their teeth. Every part of your emails has been nothing but lies and cover ups.
According to your Bible (which is laughable) Satan is the father of lies so evidently you continue right along with him. You don’t have a leg to stand on but you don’t have enough common sense to figure it out. Dan Barker was a minister for 19 years but he finally figured it out and now writes against your biblical lies. You are a nut case anyone who wants to claim they know who wrote the 4 gospels has to be completely INSANE OR IGNORANT
November 22, 2012
I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, but your insults do not make you more correct, nor do they make you sound more intelligent. Your hateful, insulting rants only discredit your assertions. If your arguments are as strong as you think, you don’t need to enhance them with low level language.
About the Catholic Encyclopedia – First, I am not Catholic and do not recognize as correct much of Catholic theology. Secondly, there is much in the Catholic Encyclopedia that I find simply wrong. Quoting that to me is not in any way impressive nor convincing. I put much of it in the same category as I put your Atheist sources – unreliable.
Perhaps you need to reread some of the things I have written before. Have I ever said that the gospel texts were not anonymous? No, I have not. What I have said is the fact that they do not have a name attached to the text does not prove your point that they are not written by those to whom they are attributed. The word anonymous does not mean that we don’t know who wrote them, it simply means that their names are not signed in the text as the author. To quote your very words, “If you had any smarts at all you’d know that.”
Also, your assertion that the 4 gospels are the compilation of teachings from other later writings is simply not supported by any serious scholarship. How do you know this? Show me what was compiled from what and give me your evidence that it is true. It is not true just because you or one of your Atheist sources says it is. You are definitely grabbing at straws on this one.
And you say all I am doing is believing someone else’s research who agrees with me? Good lord, man, what do you think you are doing? All of your research is based on the writings of Atheists and haters. You certainly have done no original research on your own. You continue to base your arguments on a naturalistic worldview framework that you don’t even understand which causes you to put facts together based on incorrect presuppositions. I would never call you a liar because I really think you believe what you are writing, but I will say that it is inaccurate.
After I have many times pointed out your inadequate arguments and requested your justification, you have yet to address a single question I have posed to you. All you have done is throw back expletives and insults. I hate to tell you this, but that is not a supporting argument. The foundational basis for your arguments is the belief that God does not exist and that material reality could have emerged on its own. As such, everything must have a natural explanation. Your arguments are all designed based on that presupposition. However, you have never given any evidence that your presuppositions have any basis in reality. I’m still waiting for you to address what makes you think your worldview is based in reality. Your arguments can have no credibility until you demonstrate this.
What I believe is that you are desperately running from God. I don’t know why. For many it is because they want to live an immoral lifestyle which goes against biblical teachings. For others it is because they don’t want to have their lives accountable to God who has standards of holiness that they rebel against. Whatever your reason, I hope that you will reconsider your rebellion from him. He loves you, you know, and has provided you a way to know peace through Christ and eternal life.
November 22, 2012
So more lies Clement of Rome nor Barnabas or Ignatius quoted from the 4 gospels, they may have quoted from bits and pieces from dozens of other gospels floating around in the first and second centuries but not from 4 gospels LIAR. DO BETTER RESEARCH DUMB ASS.
November 22, 2012
You really do need to do better research. Your sources are so biased against Christianity that they grab at straws to try and discredit it. Very unfortunate, indeed.
I can play the cut and paste game too.
The immediate successors of the apostles beginning in the late first and early second century cite Gospels and epistles as authentic including sections on the death and resurrection of Christ. In A.D. 95 Clement of Rome cited words found in Matthew. Around A.D. 110 Ignatius alludes to Matthew and John, and quoted Luke 24:39 (a crucial text on the resurrection of Christ). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle cites the synoptic gospels as authentic. The Epistle of Barnabas (135) quotes Matthew. Papias (125 and following) speaks of Matthew and Mark writing Gospels saying three times that Mark made no errors. The Shepard of Hermas alludes to Luke, Matthew, and John.
(Norman L. Geisler, The Geisler-Till Debate and Jochen Katz, The History of the Gospels – Contrary to Popular Muslim Myths.)
The truth is, you are so blinded by your rage against Christ that you are willing to believe anything anyone writes if it is done to discredit the Christian faith. I believe you are running from God and you will continue to be an angry man until you release yourself to him.
November 22, 2012
I am fixing to leave for Thanksgiving Day dinner with relatives. I don’t think i’d say anything about my research, i have compared side by side with an open mind my research. You are again an idiot saying my sendings are grasping at straws yours don’t even have a straw to grab. Your claims about Clement of Rome, Barnabas and Ignatius do not quote the 4 gospels, the 4 gospels do not get into church historical records until 170-180 A.D. and the snippets you grasp at do not quote the exact wording in the gospels.. Mark 16:9-20 are not even in the supposed earliest manuscripts they were added to 5 th. century manuscripts as well as many other verses added to the 5 th. century manuscripts not in the earliest 3rd. century manuscripts, who gave authority to add stuff to later supposed Holy manuscripts. I have read Geisler’s rantings he is as stupid as you are. I am not angry against Christ he is not in history i am angry at a dumb ass that thinks only he is correct and leaves no openings for correction. You are stupid, arogant and as un-christian as anyone i know of professing to be christian. To say Mark or any of the gospels made no mistakes makes you so ignorant AND LAUGHABLE you are not worth debating,y our foundation is built on sand..
November 22, 2012
I think I have already addressed your concerns on this one. The fact that you don’t like that I don’t use your naturalistic methodologies does not make you right. You can continue to make the same arguments all you want, but it doesn’t make them any more true than the last time you made them.
You can also call me ignorant all you want, but I have yet to see one thing backing up your naturalistic hermeneutic – except to say you don’t have to justify your presuppositions. I’m sorry, it just doesn’t work that way. Until you can actually demonstrate that your approach to dealing with reality actually represents reality, your methods based on naturalistic presuppositions simply are meaningless.
On another front, I hope that your Thanksgiving Day dinner with relatives is a meaningful time for you. We all have so much to thank God for in our lives.
November 22, 2012
If you did not act like a know it all and yell Naturalistic worldview, assertions, speculations instead of answering or trying to refute what i say you wouldn’t get insults. It gets disgusting when you continue to claim the gospel writers are known, many christian sites know that no one, ZERO KNOWS who wrote the 4 gospels. You did not live 2000 years ago and the 4 gospels do not say in their writings who wrote them, so i know you are nuts and a liar making such claims. You may not be a Catholic and you may not believe many things they say, but the fact is the Roman Catholic church is your religious Mother and you are using many of their claims made by early church fathers, BUT you want to believe only part of the things your mother church says and believe the parts that suit your personal theory. Just because you don’t believe much in the Catholic Encyclopedia does not make your belief correct. Your belief is what you allowed to stay in your mind, but that doesn’t even begin to make you the one who is correct. You have sent me nothing about the supposed virgin birth, nothing proving a historical Jesus, and absolutely nothing reliable, believeable or provable about who wrote the 4 gospels or the time frame of when they were wrote.
Of course i knew before i mentioned or asked that you could not do that. So what is agravating is you don’t and haven’t tried to refute them you have just ranted on in every email that i had a naturalistic belief, and was speculating and asserting things, those words have nothing at all to do with the subjects. I for over 20 years now have studied apologetic and biased scholars writings and weighed them in my mind against my thoughts and what other skeptical sites said and i can tell you the BIBLE and biased apologetics and supposed biblical scholars have lied and lost their case on every subject. As far as what the Bible says i would bet you anything that if you and i and one other person went in a room and the and third person mentioned just a few words on any biblical subject that i can find it in the Bible from memory faster than you can. On most of the subjects i can immedieately take you to another place in the Bible where it contradicts what the first scripture says. My old Bible has notes all over it’s pages that tells me the corresponding story and the place where it contradicts. There is no way possible a god could have inspired, or caused to be infallible the mess in the Bible.
I don’t need to re-read the Bible or apologetic lies, even though i still study daily looking for more truth in ancient writings. A couple of months ago me and another apologetic just finished over one year of emails on the subject of christianity being a copy-cat religion, we never got angry because we merely debated, all those emails were posted on his site by the time he gave up we had 6 others join in on the debate, 5 of them agreed with me and only 1agreed with him and he didn’t debate all he said was claim some things the Lord had done for him, in other words another mind controlled believing in miracles christian. You call my arguments inadequate, speculation, assertions you don’t even have any of that in your emails because you never approah the subject. You just give me silly answers that prove ZERO. I seriously doubt you ever minded your mother and dad as you grew up because you only want to believe the parts of the Catholic Encyclopedia and other early church fathers that fit your theory and your MOTHER THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is where christianity originated. I am not running from god remember i spent 32 years in christianity and i studied hard and tried to live the christian life, it’s not my fault that when i started researching seiously for truth it could not stand the test, it failed miserablly in subject after subject. Your arguments are presuppositional because you can prove none of the subjects i began with you on or on any afterwards. It does no good whatsoever to send you proof of anything because everything i send or write according to you is assertions, speculations, inadaquite. The best thing we can do is stop corresponding, because i am not going to believe un-provable fairy tales, i gave up on Santa Claus, and rabbits that lays colored Easter eggs when i was about 9 years old, and that’s exactly what you are trying to convince me of, ancient legends, myths, fables and tales. I believed christian garbage for 32 years then i proved with evidence it’s nothing but an ancient lie.
November 22, 2012
It is so interesting that the very things you are accusing me of are the precise things that you express in all of your posts. Everything you are saying is interpreted through a naturalistic lens and you ignore the faith assumptions you are basing your interpretations on. You blast me for doing that based on my theistic beliefs but totally ignore your Naturalism. While you seem to really believe that your study and conclusions are based on objective analysis, that is simply not true. Not only that, you totally ignore my questioning of your beliefs as if your beliefs are objective in a way mine are not. It seems that your are unable to even comprehend your own unsupported biases.
Even though you don’t like my answers (because of your naturalistic presuppositions) the fact is, I have answered your taunts. There are legitimate ways of doing biblical interpretation which are not based on naturalistic presuppositions. I have given you specific interpretations, hermeneutical principles and historical analysis. But you have simply rejected them out of hand (because you require answers based on naturalistic presuppositions) and continued to repeat unsupported claims and quote unreliable sources. Until you can justify your naturalistic approach to interpretation it is really hard to take seriously much of what you are saying.
You are certainly free to continue to believe your unsubstantiated beliefs. You are certainly free to continue to use spurious interpretive methodologies. You are certainly free to continue to try to use insults as a means of trying to justify your beliefs. But none of these things make your beliefs true or even point to truth. If you want to be taken seriously, you are going to have to demonstrate that your worldview presuppositions are valid – which you have not done in any respect.
I know you are going to continue to rail against me for not “giving you the proof that you want.” I know that you are going to continue to rant that you know the Bible better than anyone else. You will probably continue to get ticked off because I have called you on your worldview presuppositions and hermeneutical methodology. And you will probably continue to throw out insults, set up straw men and assert that your 32 years of being in Christianity and all of your years of “study” make you the master apologist for your point of view. Yet, you have still never backed up your naturalistic beliefs. And even 100 years of reading and asserting falsehoods do not make them true. Until you can demonstrate that Naturalism is true, you literally have nothing.
You have not proved anything. You have only speculated about how things might be if Naturalism is true. You have continually asserted that God doesn’t exist and that your arguments prove that to be a fact. But the only thing you have proved is that you believe what you believe.
If you wish to live in your fairy tale world, no one can stop you. I truly wish you the best and hope that one day you will be able to open your eyes and recognize the God who is there. He really does want you to enter a relationship with him.
November 23, 2012
You just need to shut up all you do is rattle and spew out trash with no idea of how to prove any subject. You say i insult and your whole emails are nothing but insulting me. The only way you can refute me is send proof and evidence of your theories not by telling me i am wrong by throwing in words like Naturalism, objective analysis and other BULLSHIT and falsely claiming you are sending answers. YOU DON’T HAVE ANY ANSWERS. Only an idiot would think a book sent by god for mankind needs to be subject to high learning such as religious seminary education, up until the 19th century most people were illiterate and couldn’t read, so all they could do was believe the lies ministers told them the Bible said on Sunday morning. Here you have a book (the Bible) writen in ancient languages that are now out dated with over 100 different translations that try to decipher and understand out dated languages, this christianity claims is infallible and god inspired. The KJV translate 3 different Greek words as the word hell without any explanation. Only one of those 3 Greek words mean a burning hell the same thing occurs with many Greek words. Many translators translate the Greek words to suit the way their flock believes. Or else their ministers would not recommend the flock to buy that Bible. You have given me ZERO specific interpretations you couldn’;t explain your way out of a paper bag.
Why do you lie, lie, lie? Do you know the first 6 presidents of this country plus Thomas Paine had no good thing to say about christianity, smart people see through the supernatural biblical tales and legends, myths, fables and tales. Others continue to lie for 2000 years because of either mind control or ignorance. Take your choice? You claim very stupidly there are legitimate ways of doing BIBLE interpretations, of course that being your way of interpreting it, because you are the only one who could possibly be correct. Stop wasting my time with un-provable non-answering the subject emails.
November 23, 2012
First of all, you wrote to me first, remember? All I have ever done is respond to you. If you don’t want to continue the conversation, then you don’t have to write anymore. But know this, I am not intimidated by your bullying tactics. Your profanity, insults, personal name calling and shouting don’t have any effect on me.
As far as my insulting you, you seem to have a strange definition of insults. It seems that you consider yourself insulted if someone either disagrees with or challenges your assertions. Let me help you with this. Those are not called insults, they are called challenges. Insults are such things as profanity and personal name calling. I hope this clears that up for you. I have not meant any kind of insult to you. On the other hand, where I have disagreed with you, I have not been shy about telling you why.
Now, about your dislike of my challenging your Naturalism: Too bad. Even though you don’t seem to be able to understand the significance of that challenge, it is quite valid, and until you justify your worldview your arguments are totally meaningless. Let me see if I can put it in terms you can understand.
If God does not exist, your arguments may have merit. In that case, Naturalism may, in fact, be true, and any talk about God and believing in God would be false.
On the other hand, if the God of the Bible does exist, then your arguments are totally meaningless. The reason that is so is because the naturalistic explanations you are espousing and insisting upon do not explain all of reality. In that case, miracles are possible, the explanations I have given about prophesy are plausible and the interpretations I have shared (and you don’t like) of various Scripture passages are also very plausible.
Now, you came to me with guns blazing using your naturalistic methodology to try and shoot down my faith. All I have done is insist that you demonstrate the validity of your arguments. Until you can do that, you have literally said nothing of substance. I know you don’t like being challenged in this way because you don’t have the ability to deal in this arena. But that is totally beside the point. The arena exists even if you can’t answer, and your arguments have no merit until you do.
I hope this helps you understand the situation you are in. Again, I am not compelling you to continue this conversation. It was up to you to start it and is up to you to end it. In the process of your deliberations, though, you need to be aware that God is an objectively real person who provided for you a means of eternal life. I continue to pray that you will release your anger and the walls you have put up against him and allow him in your life.
November 23, 2012
1. “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”- Thomas Jefferson
2. “The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.” -Thomas Jefferson
3. “It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one- Thomas Jefferson
4. “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.”- Thomas Jefferson
5. “There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”- Thomas Jefferson
6. “Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”- Ben Franklin
7. “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”- Ben Franklin
8. “I looked around for God’s judgments, but saw no signs of them.”- Ben Franklin
9. “In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”- Ben Franklin
10. “This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it”- John Adams
11. “The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.’- Thomas Paine
12. “Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”- Thomas Paine
13. “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”- Thomas Paine
14. “Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies.”- Thomas Paine
15. “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”- Thomas Paine
16. “It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene.”- Thomas Paine
17. “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”- George Washington
18. “The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”- Abraham Lincoln
19. “It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov’t from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others.”- James Madison
20. “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”- James Madison Smart men
November 23, 2012
I don’t have a clue why you sent me this. Third parties asserting untrue things does not make them true. If I sent you back a list of quotes which professed the truth of the gospel, would that counteract the quotes you sent? Of course not. Truth is not based on the assertions of human beings.
Before God ever created the material universe, he had in mind a purpose. The purpose was to make a creature in his image that he could have personal interaction with. In his image means that the creature must, in addition to other characteristics, have legitimate free will. In the original creation, everything worked as God designed it. But at some point, the persons he created rebelled against him and sin entered the world. This not only disrupted the relationship he had with man, but also the very created order. Rather than destroy his creation, God chose to redeem it. So, he put in place a process which culminated in a redeemer (Jesus Christ) meeting the qualifications and accomplishing the requirements to overcome the sin problem. This was objectively accomplished in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. At some point in the fulfillment of God’s purposes, the ravages of sin will be destroyed and God’s original purpose will be restored. You can personally get in on the restoration if you will open your life up to God. I continue to pray for you in that regard.
November 24, 2012
Who thinks he is smarter than the smartest men the world has ever known that includes Albert Eienstein, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, James Madison, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and many more plus me. I sent this to prove how dumb, ignorant, & stupid you are believing in the supernatural ancient legends, myths, fables and tales. And you don’t even have a clue why i sent it, more ignorance from you no wonder you have no smarts at all. Kinda strange this god of yours who supposedly knows the future didn’t have enough fore sight to know his creation of man would FALL(fail) as you put it, especially if he was going to turn loose a supposed billions of years old Satan on newly created man. Even an idiot human would know better than that. How stupid that then he had to send a supposed son to redeem what he himself screwed up. Your Jesus is a SUN GOD that hasn’t returned as christianity thinks he should in 2000 years and it’s a fact he will not return. in a million years. You can blow about the false christianity all you want to, me i am proved to be much smarter than you, your emails prove that over and over. You believe a snake (serpent) spoke the Hebrew language, an ass (donkey) spoke the Hebrew language, a burning bush talked, the sun stood still when it’s the earth that that turns, that Samson’s strength was in his hair, that a virgin had a baby without sexual intercourse, anyone who would believe that plus all the other biblical absurdities should be able to be sold my ocean front property in Arizona. I also own the Golden Gate bridge wanna’ buy it? I can easily out think your invisible imaginary sky god. Like i said i just wanted to see if you thought you were smarter than the worlds smartest men so there is no more use in me fooling with a fool, so tell other fools your sky god myth, but not me.
P.S. Are you fat? You must be you sit on your ass in front of a computer all day answering me. Evidently you get money to live on from christian donations and tithes, you must be rich stealing all this money like Benny Hinn who stays in $4000.00 per night suites when he travels to fake healings, or John Hagee who owns a big ranch with a mansion on it, or are you a smaller religion peddler who just gets a free house to live in and has a nice or new car to drive and donations to live on?
November 24, 2012
I can’t believe that you are asserting yourself to be one of the smartest men in the world alongside the many notable people you have named, yet continue to assert propositions without ever backing them up. In this one post alone you have:
∙ Made the assertion that it is impossible for smart people to get faith matters wrong. (The fact that the people you mentioned are smart in their various areas of expertise has nothing to do with their knowledge of God.)
∙ Continued to assert you know that God doesn’t exist without ever having once provided any evidence for the validity of your naturalistic worldview. (I am still waiting for you to address this for the first time.)
∙ Made inferences about what I know and don’t know regarding your intention regarding your previous post of notable people. (I actually did know why you sent that list. You seemed to have missed my reply as dismissing it for not being proof of what you think it is.)
∙ Continued to mischaracterize who Christ is (I would think if you had done as much study as you say you have you would not continue to miss this one.)
∙ Mischaracterized the nature and beliefs of the Christian faith. (You are setting up straw men to knock down which doesn’t in any way prove your point.)
∙ Failed to recognize that if God really does exist, miracles are not strange. (You have still never demonstrated your assertion that God doesn’t exist. Simply repeating it over and over does not prove anything.)
∙ Continued to throw out insults which only demonstrate your bad character, not prove any point you are trying to make. (You don’t know anything about me or my lifestyle.)
It is truly sad to see how you have allowed yourself to accumulate such anger and hatred. Truly intelligent people debate matters such as this without the kind of vitriolic personal attacks you have made. I continue to pray for you that you will be able to one day come to know God and the peace he offers for your life. It is still not too late for you.
November 24, 2012
You dumb ass i am saying i am smart for only one reason that’s because like those famous thinkers i sent i also figured out the Jesus and biblical myths. On the other hand you reject them because you think you are smartter than they are. It matters not to you how many smart, intelligent people you read about who completely disagree with your theory you are still to dumb to figure it out. That’s why i called you a fool. You have provided me with ZERO evidence that god exiats or any history that Jesus the miracle worker ever existed as a flesh and blood person.
Well in your previous letter you said you didn’t have a clue why i sent the list but now say you know why i sent it that makes you a liar again one way or the other. You lie so much just like your Bible you don’t know from a few minutes apart whether you are lying or not. How the hell can i mischaracterize Christ who never existed? God exists in your theory only, you can’t prove your invisable sky (sun god) exists. Talk about straw men. Talk about a dumb ass repeating over and over, better check your sendings. I’ll repeat again i am not angry about the subjects i am angry that you have such a lack of intelligence that you are agravating and make me angry. It’s truly sad that you are so biblically mind controlled, biblically brainwashed w/pure blind faith that you can’t figure out i sent proof that defeats you a long time ago. You don’t know what bad character is otherwise you wouldn’t post lies and deciet on your site or to me. Paul tells his followers the tale he tells causes Liberty, it doesn’t it causes idiots like you, i have had more liberty of mind since finding out biblical lies than anyone believing this crap. You really should start a complete new research then you’d find out where the belief in Satan originated where the belief in a burning hell originated, neither belief originated from your Bible. I know plenty about you and your lifestyle and i also know you have no idea how to debate, i know you are a biblical idiot and a FOOL. YOU WON’T GET THE LAST WORD WITH ME even if i strop corresponding i’ll send you copy and pastes until you stop sending your filthy lying garbage. I can tell you want to get the last word in so you can falsely claim you won, the fact is i have sent more proof and evidence for my points and you have sent ZERO proof. Goodbye unless you answer otherwise i may flood your email until you get angry enough to block me. My dad said to me when i was a child if you know you are correct “SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY” I do and i will.
P.S. Also you might also check your Bible because nowhere in it does it promise christians go to heaven. See you have no idea what your Bible really says.
November 24, 2012
I feel quite certain that you believe what you are writing. However, in spite of your protestations to the contrary, you have not proven anything. Assertions are not proof. You have said what you believe but have not demonstrated in any sense that it represents reality. Your belief that God does not exist is every bit as much a religious position as my belief in God. Based on your naturalistic approach, you can’t even meet your own standards. Let’s see your proof that God doesn’t exist. You have none. All you have is your assertions based on a faith foundation that you can’t demonstrate to be true.
Knowledge involves more than mere physiological operations. That is true regarding human relationships, and is true in a person’s relationship with God. I know that right now your rebellion against God is fueling your vitriol against me and your hatred toward God. I pray that you will one day move past that and come to know the living, loving God who created you.
True to his word, Jay followed this last post up with a cut and paste document that had nothing worthy of response. At that point, I did not respond to him and have not heard from him since.
© 2012 Freddy Davis